Devs on Tape x KSCOPE25 - Alex Nuijten - From Physical Therapy to IT with Insights on the Future

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00:00:10: Kai Donato: Let's go.

00:00:23: Kai Donato: Hello and welcome to another episode of

00:00:25: Kai Donato: Devs on Tape Today, again from Grapevine,

00:00:28: Kai Donato: texas.

00:00:29: Kai Donato: Odtac Case Go is happening right here and I

00:00:32: Kai Donato: have, as you might hear, the last weeks,

00:00:34: Kai Donato: plenty of great guests here with me in the

00:00:37: Kai Donato: ODTAC booth in the middle of the exhibition

00:00:38: Kai Donato: center.

00:00:39: Kai Donato: So please be with us.

00:00:41: Kai Donato: When there are maybe some background noises,

00:00:43: Kai Donato: it's because, like there are hundreds of

00:00:44: Kai Donato: people around us right now, kind of

00:00:46: Kai Donato: pressure, right, yeah, so you, you might,

00:00:49: Kai Donato: you might heard it from this one word yeah,

00:00:52: Kai Donato: you might guess who is my guest today.

00:00:54: Kai Donato: It's alex newton, newton, newton, newton.

00:00:58: Kai Donato: Close enough.

00:01:00: Kai Donato: So, hey, please introduce, introduce

00:01:03: Kai Donato: yourself to our listeners All right.

00:01:04: Kai Donato: Whoever might not know you.

00:01:06: Alex Nuijten: Whoever might not Okay.

00:01:08: Alex Nuijten: So I'm Alex Nuyten, nuyten.

00:01:11: Alex Nuijten: Okay, but I'll just listen to Alex.

00:01:15: Alex Nuijten: So that's more than enough.

00:01:16: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I'm one of the Oracle Acer editors.

00:01:18: Alex Nuijten: I regularly go to conferences, send there.

00:01:21: Alex Nuijten: My most of my area is going to SQL, pl, sql,

00:01:24: Alex Nuijten: a little bit of Apex every now and then

00:01:27: Alex Nuijten: yeah, that's pretty much it.

00:01:29: Alex Nuijten: To say, yeah, I would like to say that's,

00:01:31: Alex Nuijten: that's pretty much it.

00:01:32: Kai Donato: Yeah, I have my, my own person, one person

00:01:34: Kai Donato: company, so an independent consultant, and

00:01:38: Kai Donato: uh, you, you make it work to be at so many

00:01:41: Kai Donato: conferences and attending it, just being

00:01:44: Kai Donato: self-employed, right?

00:01:45: Kai Donato: So this is kind of something different than

00:01:47: Kai Donato: many of our other guests that are just like.

00:01:50: Kai Donato: Companies are allowing them to come to the

00:01:51: Kai Donato: conference and they don't need to take care

00:01:53: Kai Donato: of like projects they're working on, right?

00:01:57: Kai Donato: So how do you do that?

00:01:59: Alex Nuijten: How do I do that?

00:02:00: Alex Nuijten: How do I balance that?

00:02:01: Kai Donato: Yeah, exactly.

00:02:02: Alex Nuijten: I find out that if I'm working for uh, for

00:02:04: Alex Nuijten: a project or on a project that I get quite

00:02:08: Alex Nuijten: easily bored, so if I'm working for like a

00:02:12: Alex Nuijten: couple of months at a time and it's like

00:02:15: Alex Nuijten: it's most of the time a lot of routine

00:02:17: Alex Nuijten: stuff that I do, so I kind of find that I

00:02:19: Alex Nuijten: have a nice balance, that if I go to a

00:02:22: Alex Nuijten: conference I have have less, it's like a

00:02:23: Alex Nuijten: mini vacation type, even though it's still

00:02:26: Alex Nuijten: work related, so you get away from the

00:02:28: Alex Nuijten: project and you get to do some other stuff

00:02:30: Alex Nuijten: and then you go back to the project and

00:02:33: Alex Nuijten: you're refreshed, new energy, new ideas.

00:02:37: Alex Nuijten: So, yeah, I kind of found that I needed

00:02:39: Alex Nuijten: that balance.

00:02:40: Kai Donato: And this makes you to an ACE director.

00:02:42: Kai Donato: So you have so much time to contribute and

00:02:44: Kai Donato: you have this regular vacations, you call

00:02:47: Kai Donato: it.

00:02:48: Alex Nuijten: Well, it still works it still works.

00:02:50: Alex Nuijten: That's the story and I'm sticking to that

00:02:52: Alex Nuijten: one.

00:02:53: Kai Donato: So it's fine.

00:02:55: Kai Donato: So you're visiting great places, you're

00:02:56: Kai Donato: traveling around the world, I would say.

00:02:58: Kai Donato: I mean, kscope is something special, right?

00:03:00: Alex Nuijten: So Kscope is very special.

00:03:01: Kai Donato: European conferences.

00:03:06: Kai Donato: But you will not get an ace director, but

00:03:07: Kai Donato: just regularly attending conferences You're

00:03:08: Kai Donato: speaking to right.

00:03:09: Alex Nuijten: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I only, or mostly,

00:03:11: Alex Nuijten: go to conferences if I'm speaking.

00:03:14: Alex Nuijten: So if I'm not speaking, if I'm not

00:03:16: Alex Nuijten: presenting, then I might go to a conference.

00:03:20: Alex Nuijten: But it's not the same, right, it's not the

00:03:25: Alex Nuijten: same, it's it's different way.

00:03:26: Alex Nuijten: And like, like you said, k-scope is kind of

00:03:28: Alex Nuijten: special.

00:03:28: Alex Nuijten: So the first time I was on the public stage

00:03:29: Alex Nuijten: it was at the k-scope.

00:03:30: Alex Nuijten: Okay, so that was a long time ago, but and

00:03:32: Alex Nuijten: that was really so scary and exciting and

00:03:35: Alex Nuijten: so you have chosen an american conference

00:03:37: Alex Nuijten: to uh to be a first-time speaker?

00:03:41: Kai Donato: yeah, they asked you to, or you just saw

00:03:43: Kai Donato: the conference and you knew that you will

00:03:44: Kai Donato: get the conference ticket for free when you

00:03:47: Kai Donato: no, I never heard of the conference before.

00:03:49: Alex Nuijten: So I was working at a company and so one of

00:03:53: Alex Nuijten: my colleagues he knew the conference, he

00:03:55: Alex Nuijten: had been there for a couple of years

00:03:57: Alex Nuijten: already before that and he kind of it's a

00:04:00: Alex Nuijten: nice conference to go to and maybe submit a

00:04:02: Alex Nuijten: paper and this and the other.

00:04:04: Alex Nuijten: So I did, and I think I submitted like

00:04:06: Alex Nuijten: three or four abstracts, Okay, and of

00:04:08: Alex Nuijten: course all of them got rejected.

00:04:12: Alex Nuijten: All of them got rejected.

00:04:13: Alex Nuijten: And and so my colleague was like well, you

00:04:15: Alex Nuijten: had this idea for a presentation which

00:04:17: Alex Nuijten: could be a duo presentation.

00:04:19: Alex Nuijten: So he said well, I appreciate the effort

00:04:22: Alex Nuijten: you put in all of your abstracts and all of

00:04:24: Alex Nuijten: them got rejected.

00:04:25: Alex Nuijten: So why don't we make the duo presentation?

00:04:28: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, so, and that's how I came to only

00:04:31: Alex Nuijten: talk the first time, Always, always a fun

00:04:33: Alex Nuijten: story, right, I share that.

00:04:35: Kai Donato: I have the same thing.

00:04:38: Kai Donato: I did a presentation before in Germany.

00:04:40: Kai Donato: But you try to go to Kscope and you're

00:04:42: Kai Donato: submitting as many abstracts as possible,

00:04:44: Kai Donato: right, and then from my end, I got like

00:04:46: Kai Donato: three different presentations accepted and

00:04:49: Kai Donato: our listeners might know how this works.

00:04:51: Kai Donato: When you attend or when you submit

00:04:53: Kai Donato: abstracts to a conference, then you just

00:04:56: Kai Donato: think of a topic that might not be really.

00:05:00: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, you have like a general idea.

00:05:02: Alex Nuijten: Most of the time you're like okay, I have a

00:05:03: Alex Nuijten: general idea of idea what I'd like to talk

00:05:05: Alex Nuijten: about, this kind of technology or that kind

00:05:07: Alex Nuijten: of oh, this sounds interesting.

00:05:08: Kai Donato: Yeah, so I might dive into that, like later

00:05:12: Kai Donato: on, and like this, basically just a couple

00:05:14: Kai Donato: of months or weeks before the conference

00:05:16: Kai Donato: like yeah, yeah, you really have to dive

00:05:17: Kai Donato: into, uh, this stuff, yeah so you have an

00:05:19: Kai Donato: idea of what topic you want to go, want to

00:05:22: Kai Donato: talk about, then you get kind of a title

00:05:24: Kai Donato: and then you write an abstract on that

00:05:26: Kai Donato: because you need like a certain amount of

00:05:29: Kai Donato: words to be.

00:05:30: Alex Nuijten: Describe what it's about or give a general

00:05:33: Alex Nuijten: suggestion what you planned to do.

00:05:35: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

00:05:37: Kai Donato: And if you submit like three or four talks,

00:05:39: Kai Donato: you just say, okay, if some of those will

00:05:42: Kai Donato: be accepted, it's absolutely manageable.

00:05:44: Alex Nuijten: But if you get off, yeah, then you have

00:05:47: Alex Nuijten: plenty of work to do.

00:05:48: Alex Nuijten: You have a lot of work to do.

00:05:49: Kai Donato: Yeah, yeah, yeah there's like a half a year

00:05:52: Kai Donato: time to do that, right?

00:05:53: Kai Donato: So from abstract submission to the

00:05:56: Kai Donato: conference itself, plenty of months.

00:05:58: Kai Donato: And then you wait a couple of months to see

00:05:59: Kai Donato: which one were basically accepted.

00:06:02: Kai Donato: And this time, I guess the maids went out

00:06:05: Kai Donato: just a few months before the conference.

00:06:07: Kai Donato: I guess it was this year, right?

00:06:08: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I think so too yeah.

00:06:11: Kai Donato: I remember adding this in December then.

00:06:14: Kai Donato: So you have at least like five to six

00:06:16: Kai Donato: months time to prepare for them.

00:06:18: Kai Donato: Yeah, exactly.

00:06:18: Kai Donato: But yeah, it went from there.

00:06:20: Kai Donato: So you started like being thrown in the

00:06:22: Kai Donato: cold water, having so many conference talks

00:06:24: Kai Donato: at the same conference being prepared for.

00:06:26: Kai Donato: So where was the first CaseCoop you

00:06:29: Kai Donato: attended?

00:06:29: Alex Nuijten: Where was?

00:06:30: Alex Nuijten: The first one was in New Orleans, oh man.

00:06:34: Alex Nuijten: So yeah, it was 2005.

00:06:37: Alex Nuijten: I'm almost ashamed to no.

00:06:38: Alex Nuijten: So it was 20, 20 years ago.

00:06:40: Alex Nuijten: Okay, so, 2005, new Orleans, and that was

00:06:44: Alex Nuijten: it was.

00:06:45: Alex Nuijten: I did a co-presentation with my colleague

00:06:47: Alex Nuijten: of mine and the format was it was going to

00:06:50: Alex Nuijten: be new features on the database stuff.

00:06:53: Alex Nuijten: So SQL, pl, sql, new features, yeah, and

00:06:56: Alex Nuijten: the format that we used was a quiz type.

00:06:59: Alex Nuijten: Okay, so we would give like a question okay,

00:07:02: Alex Nuijten: how can you solve this, that problem?

00:07:04: Alex Nuijten: We give them multiple choice answers,

00:07:07: Alex Nuijten: basically, and one of them was like the new

00:07:08: Alex Nuijten: feature that we wanted to introduce.

00:07:10: Alex Nuijten: Okay, so with demos on that one, like this

00:07:13: Alex Nuijten: is the old way of solving things, but with

00:07:14: Alex Nuijten: this new feature, you can do it this way

00:07:16: Alex Nuijten: and it's much better, easier.

00:07:18: Kai Donato: So a well-thought talk, right?

00:07:20: Kai Donato: It's not just 50 slides, 60 minutes and

00:07:23: Kai Donato: just going from it.

00:07:29: Alex Nuijten: So it was one of those things where we

00:07:30: Alex Nuijten: started the format was we asked the

00:07:31: Alex Nuijten: questions audience would participate in,

00:07:32: Alex Nuijten: like with the written down answers and

00:07:34: Alex Nuijten: whoever won actually got a prize, and stuff.

00:07:37: Alex Nuijten: So in that session my colleague was doing

00:07:41: Alex Nuijten: all the demos on the new features and I was

00:07:43: Alex Nuijten: the quiz master.

00:07:44: Kai Donato: Okay, just comedian, right the moderator?

00:07:46: Kai Donato: Yeah, this is something I remember from

00:07:50: Kai Donato: your talks, that there's always some kind

00:07:52: Kai Donato: of humor in it, right?

00:07:54: Kai Donato: Oh, thank you, I guess.

00:07:56: Kai Donato: Yeah, it was definitely a humor.

00:07:57: Kai Donato: Never never in the no.

00:08:00: Alex Nuijten: So, but for that talk at that time I was

00:08:03: Alex Nuijten: really nervous about it.

00:08:04: Alex Nuijten: So my colleague was obviously more

00:08:06: Alex Nuijten: experienced and whatnot.

00:08:08: Alex Nuijten: So he asked me about it like okay, how are

00:08:09: Alex Nuijten: you going to then see, once you start after

00:08:12: Alex Nuijten: your first five minutes?

00:08:13: Alex Nuijten: If you start talking after five minutes,

00:08:14: Alex Nuijten: it's okay, and then it's until the end,

00:08:16: Alex Nuijten: Right?

00:08:17: Alex Nuijten: So the first five minutes is the hard part,

00:08:19: Alex Nuijten: and then it's easy to go through the talk

00:08:22: Alex Nuijten: itself.

00:08:22: Alex Nuijten: So he asked me like so how are you gonna

00:08:25: Alex Nuijten: introduce yourself, or how are you gonna

00:08:26: Alex Nuijten: start?

00:08:32: Alex Nuijten: So I thought about it a long time and I

00:08:33: Alex Nuijten: said, well, what I'm gonna do is welcome to

00:08:34: Alex Nuijten: the session.

00:08:34: Alex Nuijten: This talk is different than all other talks,

00:08:36: Alex Nuijten: because normally people talk for 50 minutes

00:08:39: Alex Nuijten: and then 10 minutes you can ask questions.

00:08:42: Alex Nuijten: So with this talk is gonna be the other way

00:08:44: Alex Nuijten: around we're gonna be asking questions, you.

00:08:45: Alex Nuijten: With this talk, it's going to be the other

00:08:45: Alex Nuijten: way around we're going to be asking

00:08:46: Alex Nuijten: questions, You're going to be providing the

00:08:47: Alex Nuijten: answers, and then we'll take it from there.

00:08:50: Alex Nuijten: And he said, well, that's a nice way of

00:08:52: Alex Nuijten: getting started setting the expectations.

00:08:55: Kai Donato: I mean, if you've got the community or the

00:08:57: Kai Donato: audience involved there, yeah, a little bit

00:08:59: Kai Donato: more into it, into it, right?

00:09:07: Kai Donato: So I remember talking in front of people

00:09:08: Kai Donato: that were just attending a speech and

00:09:09: Kai Donato: waiting for someone to let it rain like

00:09:10: Kai Donato: knowledge-wise, and so if you get the

00:09:13: Kai Donato: audience into it and being part of the

00:09:15: Kai Donato: whole presentation, it might be a risk,

00:09:17: Kai Donato: right.

00:09:18: Kai Donato: So if you have people in front of you who

00:09:20: Kai Donato: doesn't care.

00:09:21: Kai Donato: Oh yeah, true.

00:09:22: Alex Nuijten: Did that happen to you?

00:09:24: Alex Nuijten: Oh yeah, you see a big difference in the

00:09:27: Alex Nuijten: audience.

00:09:27: Alex Nuijten: Like it really depends on where you are,

00:09:29: Alex Nuijten: like here in the US, where we're now.

00:09:32: Alex Nuijten: If you open the floor for questions or if

00:09:34: Alex Nuijten: you ask like in between, like okay, anyone,

00:09:36: Alex Nuijten: any questions, you might get someone that

00:09:41: Alex Nuijten: actually basically takes over the speech

00:09:42: Alex Nuijten: and then you're you have to cut them off or

00:09:45: Alex Nuijten: you have to be careful with that one yeah

00:09:47: Alex Nuijten: on the other hand, if, like in some of the

00:09:49: Alex Nuijten: other countries.

00:09:50: Kai Donato: You can say it yeah, other countries.

00:09:52: Alex Nuijten: Well, people are just stone-faced.

00:09:54: Alex Nuijten: You don't even know if they're actually

00:09:56: Alex Nuijten: hearing what you're saying or even

00:09:58: Alex Nuijten: understand what you're saying yeah, staring

00:09:59: Alex Nuijten: at the at the floor right.

00:10:01: Alex Nuijten: So oh yeah, not to be involved yeah, I had

00:10:04: Alex Nuijten: one time at a session where it was like it

00:10:06: Alex Nuijten: was a guy sitting in the back of the room

00:10:09: Alex Nuijten: and he was quite muscular, he was quite a

00:10:11: Alex Nuijten: yeah, beefy guy and he had he was staring

00:10:14: Alex Nuijten: at me all the time and he had these deaths

00:10:16: Alex Nuijten: there like, oh, when you're done, I'm gonna,

00:10:19: Alex Nuijten: I'm gonna destroy you.

00:10:20: Alex Nuijten: I'm gonna really go there but but why?

00:10:22: Kai Donato: yeah, it's just a look right yeah, yeah, he

00:10:24: Kai Donato: just had that.

00:10:25: Alex Nuijten: Look.

00:10:25: Alex Nuijten: He was like I'm gonna, when you shut up,

00:10:28: Alex Nuijten: I'm gonna really right.

00:10:31: Alex Nuijten: So I was done with that talk and I started

00:10:33: Alex Nuijten: getting all my stuff so my laptop and my

00:10:35: Alex Nuijten: bag and everything and he stood up and he

00:10:38: Alex Nuijten: walked over to me.

00:10:39: Alex Nuijten: I'm like, hurry up, got all my stuff.

00:10:41: Alex Nuijten: He walked, walked up to me and he said I

00:10:43: Alex Nuijten: liked your talk with the same accent, right,

00:10:47: Alex Nuijten: yeah, I liked your talk.

00:10:49: Kai Donato: It was good but you were frightened the

00:10:51: Kai Donato: whole time, right oh yeah, absolutely, I

00:10:53: Kai Donato: thought I better not make any mistakes,

00:10:55: Kai Donato: yeah, but you, you kept that kind of

00:10:58: Kai Donato: talking, right, kind of presentations.

00:11:01: Kai Donato: I want to refer to the talk I saw the last

00:11:03: Kai Donato: time.

00:11:03: Kai Donato: I I guess it was this one versus the other

00:11:06: Kai Donato: talk with Chris Saxon, right?

00:11:09: Kai Donato: So please tell me more about that.

00:11:10: Kai Donato: So it was announced on social media and so

00:11:12: Kai Donato: on with like great images and everyone was

00:11:15: Kai Donato: looking forward to it.

00:11:16: Kai Donato: And we knew that you were prepared so well.

00:11:20: Kai Donato: So even we did kind of a knockoff of that

00:11:22: Kai Donato: doing PL SQL versus JavaScript.

00:11:24: Kai Donato: We, we liked the, we liked the format.

00:11:26: Kai Donato: So yeah, exactly.

00:11:28: Kai Donato: So what brought you to think this is a

00:11:31: Kai Donato: great format?

00:11:32: Alex Nuijten: Okay so, it was a talk about SQL and then

00:11:36: Alex Nuijten: NC versus Oracle syntax.

00:11:38: Alex Nuijten: It's also always one of those debates how

00:11:40: Alex Nuijten: do you do it joins, and should you use like

00:11:43: Alex Nuijten: the ANSI joint standard, or just use

00:11:45: Alex Nuijten: command?

00:11:45: Alex Nuijten: And so it's one of the things that we

00:11:48: Alex Nuijten: started talking to Chris about it I know

00:11:50: Alex Nuijten: Chris very well, so that makes it easier

00:11:52: Alex Nuijten: and he said, well, we should do a talk

00:11:54: Alex Nuijten: about like, what are the advantages and

00:11:55: Alex Nuijten: what are these?

00:11:56: Alex Nuijten: And while we were discussing about it, it

00:11:59: Alex Nuijten: sounded like we were like, okay, well, if

00:12:00: Alex Nuijten: you're going to be pro ANSI and I'm going

00:12:02: Alex Nuijten: to be non ANSI, so it's, you're going to be

00:12:03: Alex Nuijten: pro-Ancy and I'm going to be non-Ancy, so

00:12:05: Alex Nuijten: it's just going to be.

00:12:06: Alex Nuijten: We have to fight it out.

00:12:08: Alex Nuijten: And while we're talking about it, this

00:12:10: Alex Nuijten: sounds like a boxing match.

00:12:12: Alex Nuijten: So we came up with that concept like, okay,

00:12:14: Alex Nuijten: let's do a boxing match.

00:12:15: Alex Nuijten: And then at first Chris was doing the Ancy

00:12:18: Alex Nuijten: Defender of Ancy, but Chris works for

00:12:21: Alex Nuijten: Oracle.

00:12:21: Alex Nuijten: So I said, no, you can't do that, you have

00:12:24: Alex Nuijten: to be Oracle and everything was prepared

00:12:26: Alex Nuijten: for this role right.

00:12:27: Kai Donato: And then you switched and you were all set.

00:12:30: Alex Nuijten: So we realized so even stupid things like

00:12:35: Alex Nuijten: that.

00:12:35: Alex Nuijten: When you start thinking about, okay, we can

00:12:36: Alex Nuijten: do a boxing match, you have to have

00:12:39: Alex Nuijten: different rounds, so what are we going to

00:12:40: Alex Nuijten: be talking about in different rounds and

00:12:42: Alex Nuijten: who's going to win?

00:12:43: Alex Nuijten: You have to have some kind of like okay,

00:12:45: Alex Nuijten: who's going to win?

00:12:46: Alex Nuijten: So we divided up in three rounds, so just

00:12:49: Alex Nuijten: the joins, to give it the obvious one.

00:12:51: Alex Nuijten: Of course I was going to win that round,

00:12:54: Alex Nuijten: okay.

00:12:54: Alex Nuijten: So we decided I was going to.

00:12:56: Alex Nuijten: So I was on the ANSI side and said, okay,

00:12:58: Alex Nuijten: I'm going to win this one.

00:13:01: Alex Nuijten: So the second was functions.

00:13:01: Alex Nuijten: There are nc functions, there are oracle

00:13:04: Alex Nuijten: specific functions.

00:13:05: Alex Nuijten: So crystal's gonna do that one, okay.

00:13:07: Alex Nuijten: And then we had some miscellaneous nc

00:13:09: Alex Nuijten: things that were in there.

00:13:11: Alex Nuijten: We thought, you know what?

00:13:12: Alex Nuijten: Because it's one one you can prepare like

00:13:14: Alex Nuijten: the scoreboard, one one right, that's easy.

00:13:16: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, you, you know because, because I was

00:13:19: Alex Nuijten: gonna win, he's gonna win.

00:13:21: Alex Nuijten: So the scoreboard said one one, yeah.

00:13:23: Alex Nuijten: So we thought you know, we'll let the

00:13:24: Alex Nuijten: audience decide who's going to win round

00:13:26: Alex Nuijten: three.

00:13:27: Alex Nuijten: So just by noise and that kind of stuff,

00:13:29: Alex Nuijten: sure, and if you kind of rally up people

00:13:31: Alex Nuijten: that way, they want to participate.

00:13:33: Alex Nuijten: So then Chris came up with like well, if

00:13:36: Alex Nuijten: we're going to be doing a boxing match, it

00:13:39: Alex Nuijten: should be nice if we have like an intro, so

00:13:42: Alex Nuijten: someone like a speaker who's actually can

00:13:44: Alex Nuijten: do that kind of stuff.

00:13:45: Alex Nuijten: So one of his colleagues at Oracle he had a

00:13:48: Alex Nuijten: really great voice for that one so he

00:13:50: Alex Nuijten: recorded like the info to the boxing match.

00:13:54: Alex Nuijten: Like in the red corner, alex no kidding, no,

00:13:58: Alex Nuijten: I was in the blue corner, red is Oracle, of

00:14:00: Alex Nuijten: course.

00:14:00: Alex Nuijten: I was always pretending that I was in the

00:14:01: Alex Nuijten: blue corner, ran as Oracle, of course.

00:14:01: Kai Donato: I was always pretending that I was in the

00:14:04: Kai Donato: dark, right yeah sounded good, I almost

00:14:08: Kai Donato: fell for it.

00:14:08: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, yeah, so yeah you got the intros from

00:14:13: Alex Nuijten: the colleague from the colleague yeah,

00:14:14: Alex Nuijten: exactly, so of course every boxer has a

00:14:17: Alex Nuijten: nickname as well, right, so I I picked

00:14:20: Alex Nuijten: Chris's nickname there.

00:14:22: Alex Nuijten: So, he's Chris Saxon right, so his middle

00:14:25: Alex Nuijten: name was Chris Anglo-Saxon.

00:14:29: Kai Donato: Anglo-Saxon.

00:14:29: Kai Donato: Okay, I thought it was funny.

00:14:30: Kai Donato: So, yeah, I mean yeah, how often did you

00:14:34: Kai Donato: have this talk?

00:14:35: Kai Donato: How?

00:14:35: Kai Donato: Often I saw it on my agenda and that that

00:14:37: Kai Donato: I'm honest.

00:14:40: Alex Nuijten: I saw it in the agenda of different

00:14:41: Alex Nuijten: companies, right, yeah, yeah, it was

00:14:42: Alex Nuijten: conferences, sorry, yeah, I think we did

00:14:43: Alex Nuijten: that one, a total of nine times and it's

00:14:45: Alex Nuijten: always the same right.

00:14:46: Kai Donato: So well it's it's, it's all.

00:14:48: Alex Nuijten: It's always a little bit different, okay,

00:14:50: Alex Nuijten: uh, so we all I would like to bring for for

00:14:53: Alex Nuijten: that talk.

00:14:53: Alex Nuijten: We, we brought some props, we had some blow

00:14:56: Alex Nuijten: up boxing gloves and that kind of stuff so.

00:15:00: Kai Donato: Always improving.

00:15:02: Alex Nuijten: Always changing.

00:15:03: Alex Nuijten: I would put it that way.

00:15:04: Kai Donato: Improving I'm not sure.

00:15:07: Alex Nuijten: Um, what was I going to say?

00:15:08: Alex Nuijten: Oh, the props, yeah.

00:15:10: Alex Nuijten: So while we, as we did that, talk a few

00:15:13: Alex Nuijten: times, I thought I'll just try to get Chris

00:15:17: Alex Nuijten: off his, so I started bringing in more

00:15:19: Alex Nuijten: props.

00:15:20: Alex Nuijten: So, fake noses and mustaches, okay, that

00:15:23: Alex Nuijten: kind of stuff, yeah.

00:15:24: Kai Donato: So you're planning to bring that back to do

00:15:26: Kai Donato: like kind of a second match?

00:15:28: Kai Donato: Or is it just a thing you just stopped

00:15:30: Kai Donato: doing after it was great, Like we did it

00:15:32: Kai Donato: nine times.

00:15:33: Kai Donato: It's very great, but yeah, I'll see.

00:15:37: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, we did like I said nine times.

00:15:38: Alex Nuijten: That was quite a lot for just one talk, but

00:15:42: Alex Nuijten: things also started changing within Oracle,

00:15:44: Alex Nuijten: right.

00:15:47: Alex Nuijten: So the reason why I won round number one

00:15:48: Alex Nuijten: was because of this, that and the other

00:15:49: Alex Nuijten: where there was something strange in

00:15:51: Alex Nuijten: documentation, but they fixed that, so it's

00:15:52: Alex Nuijten: like yeah they can't use that kind of.

00:15:56: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, or they also did a fix on something

00:15:59: Alex Nuijten: that I said well, that's obvious, that's

00:16:01: Alex Nuijten: stupid.

00:16:02: Alex Nuijten: And they fixed that one as well.

00:16:03: Alex Nuijten: So it's like, yeah, the talk's not, it's,

00:16:06: Alex Nuijten: it's dated now.

00:16:07: Kai Donato: So obviously you're not doing the exact

00:16:09: Kai Donato: talk again, but if you do this fighting

00:16:12: Kai Donato: theme, uh theme, I think that it's pretty

00:16:15: Kai Donato: neat for a presentation because everyone is

00:16:17: Kai Donato: like following and you got the, the, the

00:16:18: Kai Donato: props for that, you have the sound files,

00:16:20: Kai Donato: the leaderboard, you have the story behind

00:16:22: Kai Donato: the talk, right.

00:16:23: Kai Donato: So you're just teaching people in in in

00:16:26: Kai Donato: technology stuff, but do it a fun way, and

00:16:28: Kai Donato: this is very sudden to see.

00:16:30: Kai Donato: I think, yeah, it's true, so bring it back,

00:16:31: Kai Donato: bring it back.

00:16:32: Kai Donato: Bring it back with some some other VS stuff,

00:16:35: Kai Donato: right.

00:16:36: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, it's.

00:16:42: Alex Nuijten: I think it's quite hard to to come up with

00:16:44: Alex Nuijten: like what are you going to do?

00:16:45: Alex Nuijten: Who are you going to compare stuff?

00:16:46: Alex Nuijten: Like you said, yeah, if you're going to

00:16:47: Alex Nuijten: compare sql or plsql to to javascript, how

00:16:50: Alex Nuijten: are you going to do that?

00:16:50: Alex Nuijten: So it's, I think it's quite hard to to come

00:16:53: Alex Nuijten: up with like a new kind of match type of

00:16:56: Alex Nuijten: thing or so it's uh, but I I still do.

00:17:00: Kai Donato: When you do your talks on your own, like

00:17:02: Kai Donato: just you presenting, uh, is it always like

00:17:05: Kai Donato: you have a story behind that or do you

00:17:07: Kai Donato: really do this?

00:17:08: Kai Donato: This from A to Z lectures?

00:17:12: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, that's a good question.

00:17:13: Alex Nuijten: I don't know.

00:17:14: Alex Nuijten: It's most of the time I try to come up with

00:17:16: Alex Nuijten: a theme, at least for, for, for talks, at

00:17:23: Alex Nuijten: least to, to, to get my pictures in the

00:17:24: Alex Nuijten: same kind of type of pictures and so on.

00:17:25: Alex Nuijten: But so the last talk I did was on Jason.

00:17:27: Alex Nuijten: Jason in the database.

00:17:28: Alex Nuijten: So obviously Jason, I thought of Jason

00:17:32: Alex Nuijten: Voorhees, the killer in the Friday 13th

00:17:35: Alex Nuijten: movies.

00:17:35: Alex Nuijten: Okay, so the theme was a horror scene, so I

00:17:39: Alex Nuijten: had every all kinds of pictures that you

00:17:40: Alex Nuijten: could find of Friday the 13th and I used

00:17:43: Alex Nuijten: that one throughout the talk of Jason.

00:17:46: Alex Nuijten: So I'd like to do that one.

00:17:49: Alex Nuijten: I'd also like to put in some things that

00:17:50: Alex Nuijten: made me chuckle, at least.

00:17:53: Kai Donato: Yeah, I mean, if you have fun during your

00:17:55: Kai Donato: presentation, the audience kind of have it

00:17:58: Kai Donato: too, right?

00:18:00: Kai Donato: So if the topic itself meets their

00:18:02: Kai Donato: expectations and to do some fun things

00:18:05: Kai Donato: around it, it's always nice yeah.

00:18:07: Alex Nuijten: I'd like to think so.

00:18:09: Alex Nuijten: I'm not sure because, there's always going

00:18:11: Alex Nuijten: to be something in there that is completely

00:18:13: Alex Nuijten: useless kind of information.

00:18:15: Kai Donato: But you get your feedback right.

00:18:17: Kai Donato: Especially at Kscope, people used to fill

00:18:20: Kai Donato: the forms for that, the feedback forms, and

00:18:23: Kai Donato: obviously you're like speaking the first

00:18:25: Kai Donato: time at 2005 at Kscope and you're still

00:18:27: Kai Donato: here.

00:18:28: Kai Donato: There's someone who likes your talks, right,

00:18:31: Kai Donato: at least a couple of guys.

00:18:32: Kai Donato: You can only bribe so much.

00:18:34: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I got the feedback one time, one of

00:18:36: Alex Nuijten: the first time.

00:18:37: Alex Nuijten: I thought it was like, oh, the talk was

00:18:39: Alex Nuijten: nice, but there were so many useless

00:18:40: Alex Nuijten: pictures in there and I thought I thought

00:18:43: Alex Nuijten: it was funny.

00:18:44: Alex Nuijten: Yes, so after that one I really did an

00:18:47: Alex Nuijten: effort to get more useless pictures, which

00:18:49: Alex Nuijten: are somewhat related, I guess.

00:18:54: Kai Donato: Yeah, I mean so.

00:18:55: Kai Donato: So talking for so long like 2005,.

00:18:58: Kai Donato: I have to say it again, right?

00:19:00: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, just rub it in, that's fine.

00:19:03: Kai Donato: You follow Oracle changing, like many

00:19:06: Kai Donato: things modern development, modern Oracle

00:19:09: Kai Donato: database development.

00:19:10: Kai Donato: Do you follow all the new stuff, like new

00:19:13: Kai Donato: databases coming out?

00:19:14: Kai Donato: Developer edition of 23 AI came out.

00:19:17: Kai Donato: Do you follow the steps and try each and

00:19:20: Kai Donato: every new feature or do you prepare just

00:19:23: Kai Donato: for the stuff that is well-settled and in

00:19:26: Kai Donato: the wild?

00:19:27: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I like to figure out what's new and

00:19:30: Alex Nuijten: how what things change.

00:19:33: Alex Nuijten: But I also found that even though you start

00:19:35: Alex Nuijten: looking into that kind of new functionality,

00:19:37: Alex Nuijten: it's not always easy to find like a proper

00:19:41: Alex Nuijten: use case for it.

00:19:41: Alex Nuijten: Okay, so just give an example there they

00:19:44: Alex Nuijten: made some changes with loop, like if you do

00:19:47: Alex Nuijten: a for loop, you can normally was like from

00:19:50: Alex Nuijten: one to ten and then that kind of stuff, but

00:19:52: Alex Nuijten: you can also do now you can skip things and

00:19:55: Alex Nuijten: and do different kind of indexing and so on.

00:19:57: Alex Nuijten: So I thought, well, that's nice, but why?

00:20:00: Kai Donato: it's good to know then when you stumble

00:20:03: Kai Donato: upon a problem at a customer site in the

00:20:05: Kai Donato: project and you are aware of the new

00:20:07: Kai Donato: features and you are aware of that.

00:20:08: Kai Donato: I mean, we all started and myself started

00:20:11: Kai Donato: too without JSON and database in a proper

00:20:13: Kai Donato: way.

00:20:14: Kai Donato: So there were so many SOAP things, xml

00:20:16: Kai Donato: implementations and all kinds of stuff

00:20:19: Kai Donato: going on.

00:20:20: Kai Donato: And then JSON was introduced, right, and

00:20:23: Kai Donato: you said you were talking about that, this

00:20:24: Kai Donato: was a great introduction.

00:20:26: Kai Donato: But what would you say in the last, let's

00:20:29: Kai Donato: say, five to 10 years, were your favorite

00:20:31: Kai Donato: thing?

00:20:32: Kai Donato: Coming to the database?

00:20:33: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I agree with you on the JSON stuff.

00:20:36: Kai Donato: So introducing REST APIs, REST stuff and

00:20:39: Kai Donato: then together with JSON, proper JSON

00:20:41: Kai Donato: supporters Jan.

00:20:42: Alex Nuijten: Bogaertsson yeah exactly so okay, jan

00:20:45: Alex Nuijten: Bogaertsson-.

00:20:46: Alex Nuijten: So I started looking into JSON because,

00:20:48: Alex Nuijten: like a few years ago, I wrote a book with

00:20:51: Alex Nuijten: Patrick Burrell not that guy, you know, jan

00:20:54: Alex Nuijten: Bogaertsson-.

00:20:54: Kai Donato: Yeah, obviously Jan.

00:20:55: Alex Nuijten: Bogaertsson and I thought, well, I did some

00:20:57: Alex Nuijten: work with Jason at the time, so I'll take

00:20:58: Alex Nuijten: out take care of the Jason chapters.

00:21:01: Alex Nuijten: So and he said, oh, you had to dig deep

00:21:03: Alex Nuijten: into the topic, yeah, so I thought, oh,

00:21:06: Alex Nuijten: I'll just do SQL and Jason and then peel

00:21:09: Alex Nuijten: SQL and Jason and then some storage of

00:21:11: Alex Nuijten: Jason.

00:21:11: Alex Nuijten: How are you going to store Jason?

00:21:13: Alex Nuijten: And he said, oh, that's good, that sounds

00:21:14: Alex Nuijten: great.

00:21:21: Alex Nuijten: Why don't you start writing those chapters?

00:21:22: Alex Nuijten: And I'll take a month vacation?

00:21:23: Alex Nuijten: So I thought, oh, that's good, I'll just

00:21:23: Alex Nuijten: get my chapters done and I'm done with the

00:21:24: Alex Nuijten: book and he can finish his chapters.

00:21:26: Alex Nuijten: So that was the plan.

00:21:28: Alex Nuijten: So I started looking into JSON and there

00:21:29: Alex Nuijten: was so much stuff to uncover.

00:21:31: Alex Nuijten: It was for me it was really hard to,

00:21:33: Alex Nuijten: because I had to put it down on paper like

00:21:35: Alex Nuijten: what I've read, what I've studied, what

00:21:36: Alex Nuijten: I've done, where are you going to start?

00:21:38: Alex Nuijten: Because if you start with SQL functions

00:21:41: Alex Nuijten: that use JSON, you need to know the path

00:21:44: Alex Nuijten: expressions that you need.

00:21:45: Alex Nuijten: But if you're going to start with path

00:21:46: Alex Nuijten: expressions, you have to introduce JSON

00:21:49: Alex Nuijten: first.

00:21:50: Alex Nuijten: But if you're going to introduce JSON, okay,

00:21:52: Alex Nuijten: well, you get the.

00:21:53: Alex Nuijten: And it took me, like the time he was on

00:21:55: Alex Nuijten: vacation, like by the time he came back he

00:21:58: Alex Nuijten: said oh, so how are these chapters?

00:21:59: Kai Donato: And I'm like yeah, I still have to work, I

00:22:01: Kai Donato: still have to get started on those yeah.

00:22:04: Kai Donato: So, and I really liked the JSON

00:22:06: Kai Donato: functionality in there, yeah, but talking

00:22:09: Kai Donato: about the books you wrote, I almost missed

00:22:10: Kai Donato: that, that part of this podcast.

00:22:12: Kai Donato: So so nice that you mentioned that.

00:22:15: Kai Donato: So writing a book is, is, is is kind of a

00:22:18: Kai Donato: big thing, right.

00:22:19: Kai Donato: So you write something down.

00:22:21: Kai Donato: It will stay forever.

00:22:22: Kai Donato: You cannot change it afterwards.

00:22:24: Kai Donato: You have to put some stuff, very well

00:22:26: Kai Donato: researched, in that right and to say, okay,

00:22:29: Kai Donato: I'm going to write about a feature I'm not

00:22:31: Kai Donato: that aware of Now, I have to research for

00:22:33: Kai Donato: that again and I have to figure things out

00:22:35: Kai Donato: and then somebody uses as a reference.

00:22:38: Kai Donato: So how you can get along with the pressure

00:22:41: Kai Donato: so well, you know, I have to learn this now.

00:22:44: Kai Donato: Then I have to find a way to like find the

00:22:46: Kai Donato: right entry point.

00:22:47: Kai Donato: Then you have to find a way to put it in

00:22:49: Kai Donato: words that everyone is like understanding

00:22:51: Kai Donato: and using as as a reference.

00:22:54: Alex Nuijten: But you're just at the point where you

00:22:55: Alex Nuijten: started researching for that topic and

00:22:57: Alex Nuijten: you're already aware that you might have

00:22:59: Alex Nuijten: someone looking in that to learn it yeah,

00:23:01: Alex Nuijten: well, you, the way we did it, for the last

00:23:04: Alex Nuijten: one at least, was we kind of divided the

00:23:07: Alex Nuijten: chapters, like, okay, I'm more comfortable

00:23:09: Alex Nuijten: in in this area and he's more comfortable

00:23:11: Alex Nuijten: in that area, and of course, you, you kind

00:23:13: Alex Nuijten: of know, you both kind of know the other

00:23:16: Alex Nuijten: stuff.

00:23:18: Alex Nuijten: But if you're gonna see, like I said, I

00:23:20: Alex Nuijten: said, oh, I'm, I feel comfortable with

00:23:22: Alex Nuijten: jason stupid me.

00:23:24: Alex Nuijten: So I said, well, I'll take care of those

00:23:25: Alex Nuijten: chapters.

00:23:25: Alex Nuijten: And he's like, oh, that's fine, I'll focus

00:23:28: Alex Nuijten: on looping, whatever.

00:23:30: Alex Nuijten: So that's how we how divided stuff.

00:23:33: Alex Nuijten: So you already had some pre-knowledge.

00:23:35: Alex Nuijten: Is that it's a word?

00:23:37: Kai Donato: I think so yeah, so we'll make it up anyway,

00:23:40: Kai Donato: exactly, so we had some.

00:23:42: Alex Nuijten: Well, you have some advanced knowledge

00:23:44: Alex Nuijten: about the specific topics, but then you can

00:23:46: Alex Nuijten: still go like one step deeper into into

00:23:49: Alex Nuijten: stuff.

00:23:49: Kai Donato: But at least you know you don't have to

00:23:51: Kai Donato: start from scratch so is writing a book for

00:23:53: Kai Donato: you just another way to do community

00:23:56: Kai Donato: engagement, or is it I?

00:23:58: Kai Donato: I don't think that you can make a living

00:24:00: Kai Donato: out of writing books?

00:24:02: Alex Nuijten: absolutely not.

00:24:03: Alex Nuijten: You do it for the well.

00:24:05: Alex Nuijten: Do you have something on your shelf and say

00:24:07: Alex Nuijten: I did that so?

00:24:08: Kai Donato: it's also exposure as to say improving self

00:24:12: Kai Donato: esteem yeah, I guess.

00:24:14: Alex Nuijten: So I've done that thing three times now

00:24:18: Alex Nuijten: always at A-Press right no, no, no, it's

00:24:21: Alex Nuijten: actually three different.

00:24:22: Kai Donato: Oh, three different so you taste it from

00:24:24: Kai Donato: different areas?

00:24:26: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, so the first one was Apex Best

00:24:29: Alex Nuijten: Practices.

00:24:30: Alex Nuijten: I don't know why they got, so I took care

00:24:32: Alex Nuijten: of the database part of that book.

00:24:35: Alex Nuijten: So it was a long time ago and when I got

00:24:38: Alex Nuijten: asked to join in that project I was really

00:24:40: Alex Nuijten: like wow, this is so cool.

00:24:42: Alex Nuijten: This is like, wow, this is so exciting and

00:24:44: Alex Nuijten: it was exciting, Sure, and after that

00:24:46: Alex Nuijten: you're basically done with it.

00:24:47: Alex Nuijten: I always find it hard to get started on a

00:24:49: Alex Nuijten: chapter, but once you start writing and

00:24:51: Alex Nuijten: then you get more into the chapters and you

00:24:54: Alex Nuijten: then it's, then it's, then it's easier to

00:24:56: Alex Nuijten: to complete, Then you just have to start

00:24:57: Alex Nuijten: cutting back because you wrote too many

00:24:58: Alex Nuijten: pages.

00:25:00: Alex Nuijten: And so for the second project, it was like

00:25:02: Alex Nuijten: with a team of five that we did that one.

00:25:05: Kai Donato: So how long does it take to write those

00:25:07: Kai Donato: chapters?

00:25:07: Kai Donato: For us it was for about for you.

00:25:09: Alex Nuijten: So the last one we took about a half year

00:25:12: Alex Nuijten: or so, so seven, eight months maybe.

00:25:15: Kai Donato: Okay, and how long were the writing

00:25:18: Kai Donato: sessions?

00:25:20: Kai Donato: Oh, okay.

00:25:20: Alex Nuijten: So no, so the actual writing sessions were

00:25:23: Alex Nuijten: once you kind of have like the idea of like

00:25:25: Alex Nuijten: what the structure will be in the chapter.

00:25:27: Alex Nuijten: Then most of the time I would do it like

00:25:30: Alex Nuijten: when my wife goes like to sports class and

00:25:33: Alex Nuijten: stuff.

00:25:34: Alex Nuijten: Then I was like I'll take a two hour there

00:25:36: Alex Nuijten: and then I'll do some writing there and or

00:25:38: Alex Nuijten: a sunday morning, and so it was most of the

00:25:41: Alex Nuijten: time like sessions like two to four hours

00:25:45: Alex Nuijten: everything in your private time right yeah

00:25:48: Alex Nuijten: exactly but usually like yeah okay, so you

00:25:51: Alex Nuijten: have a couple of books, and what are you

00:25:53: Alex Nuijten: writing now on?

00:25:54: Alex Nuijten: I'm not writing, so you're planning to no

00:25:57: Alex Nuijten: no why, no, why not?

00:25:59: Alex Nuijten: well, it's.

00:26:01: Alex Nuijten: It is a lot of effort that you have to put

00:26:02: Alex Nuijten: in there.

00:26:03: Alex Nuijten: What I kind of well, what I didn't like,

00:26:06: Alex Nuijten: don't like about writing books is like you

00:26:08: Alex Nuijten: have to tell the publisher or the one who's

00:26:10: Alex Nuijten: the editor you have to give them an outline

00:26:12: Alex Nuijten: of the complete book before you get started

00:26:15: Alex Nuijten: and then you have to say, okay, how many

00:26:16: Alex Nuijten: pages are there and when are you going to

00:26:17: Alex Nuijten: deliver those pages?

00:26:18: Alex Nuijten: And so that's a lot of pressure, it's a lot

00:26:23: Alex Nuijten: of.

00:26:24: Alex Nuijten: You have to meet those deadlines, otherwise

00:26:26: Alex Nuijten: they're going to start nagging you and that

00:26:28: Alex Nuijten: kind of stuff.

00:26:28: Alex Nuijten: And well, of course that's part of the

00:26:30: Alex Nuijten: process, I understand that.

00:26:31: Alex Nuijten: But it's like, oh yeah, so you put a lot of

00:26:34: Alex Nuijten: effort in it, it's nice to have it on the

00:26:36: Alex Nuijten: shelf, but that's about it, because, like

00:26:38: Alex Nuijten: you said, it's, if you're going to do it

00:26:40: Alex Nuijten: for the money, well, try something else.

00:26:42: Alex Nuijten: That's not.

00:26:42: Kai Donato: That's not writing a book in this, this

00:26:44: Kai Donato: area no, no, no so now imagine you're

00:26:47: Kai Donato: writing, writing a chapter in a book, and

00:26:49: Kai Donato: then it takes some time to get this done

00:26:53: Kai Donato: and then by the time it's being published,

00:26:56: Kai Donato: it's already outdated.

00:26:57: Kai Donato: Oh yeah, and that's what what my story is

00:27:00: Kai Donato: right.

00:27:00: Kai Donato: So I was writing about mobile development

00:27:03: Kai Donato: in a book, like like jürgen sieben brought

00:27:07: Kai Donato: a very big book, like the eighth edition of

00:27:09: Kai Donato: that already, with always new stuff inside,

00:27:12: Kai Donato: and then we talked about writing about the

00:27:14: Kai Donato: mobile part of it and I was very, very deep

00:27:17: Kai Donato: into it at that time and I just wrote my

00:27:19: Kai Donato: chapter all the same, as you already

00:27:21: Kai Donato: mentioned, like giving an outline, having

00:27:23: Kai Donato: this formatted document style you have to

00:27:25: Kai Donato: write in, and then you have deadlines and

00:27:27: Kai Donato: they read it, prove and bring it back to

00:27:31: Kai Donato: you and you have to adjust and so on.

00:27:32: Kai Donato: And then the time it goes out, the

00:27:34: Kai Donato: universal theme is coming, yeah Right, and

00:27:36: Kai Donato: everything is gone.

00:27:38: Kai Donato: So I was so happy that I wrote some kind of

00:27:41: Kai Donato: line in it.

00:27:42: Kai Donato: So rumors say that there might be something

00:27:46: Kai Donato: which makes this here obsolete, but either

00:27:49: Kai Donato: way, if you're on version like pre five,

00:27:52: Kai Donato: then you are ready to go with this jQuery

00:27:54: Kai Donato: mobile stuff.

00:27:55: Kai Donato: But yeah, I mean you have it on your shelf.

00:27:57: Kai Donato: At some point you use it as like a pole for

00:27:59: Kai Donato: your desktop, your monitor.

00:28:02: Kai Donato: At some point you say, okay, I've written a

00:28:04: Kai Donato: chapter in a book.

00:28:05: Kai Donato: It's pretty neat, but when it came out it's

00:28:07: Kai Donato: already not not the newest thing, it's not

00:28:09: Kai Donato: a responsive universal theme, but either

00:28:12: Kai Donato: way.

00:28:12: Alex Nuijten: So this didn't happen to you well, see, I

00:28:15: Alex Nuijten: read most about like sequel, peel, sequel.

00:28:17: Alex Nuijten: So that's, that is my area, so, and that

00:28:20: Alex Nuijten: doesn't get as quickly outdated as like

00:28:22: Alex Nuijten: Apex, though.

00:28:23: Kai Donato: That's very lucky.

00:28:24: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, it is lucky.

00:28:26: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I think it's lucky.

00:28:28: Alex Nuijten: But yeah, also, like, while I was writing

00:28:31: Alex Nuijten: on the JSON chapter like beta Hammerschmitt,

00:28:34: Alex Nuijten: the BM4 JSON I asked him to review the

00:28:37: Alex Nuijten: chapters.

00:28:38: Alex Nuijten: One of the things that I started writing

00:28:41: Alex Nuijten: about like there was something that didn't

00:28:42: Alex Nuijten: work properly.

00:28:44: Alex Nuijten: Blah, blah, blah.

00:28:45: Alex Nuijten: There was no support for this feature in in

00:28:47: Alex Nuijten: in Jason area and I got feedback back and

00:28:50: Alex Nuijten: there was a note in the sideline and it

00:28:52: Alex Nuijten: said you're correct, it's going to be fixed

00:28:55: Alex Nuijten: in this version, but you can't talk about

00:28:57: Alex Nuijten: it.

00:28:59: Kai Donato: Because they have to remove it, ignore it

00:29:01: Kai Donato: or just leave it in and wait for the

00:29:04: Kai Donato: aftermath.

00:29:04: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, so I already knew that this is going

00:29:07: Alex Nuijten: to be sent to the editor and it's going to

00:29:08: Alex Nuijten: be outdated.

00:29:11: Alex Nuijten: At the moment I wrote it down it's actually

00:29:13: Alex Nuijten: outdated, but it doesn't get outdated as

00:29:17: Alex Nuijten: quickly as what you were saying.

00:29:20: Kai Donato: So obviously you have a very long career

00:29:23: Kai Donato: behind you.

00:29:23: Kai Donato: Rub it in again, right?

00:29:24: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, thank you.

00:29:27: Kai Donato: So if I would ask you, how would you

00:29:30: Kai Donato: suggest a new developer to join the Oracle

00:29:33: Kai Donato: ecosystem?

00:29:35: Kai Donato: Not how, not only how, but would you

00:29:38: Kai Donato: suggest someone coming from the university

00:29:40: Kai Donato: or even from school finding its way?

00:29:43: Kai Donato: So would you suggest to go into the Oracle

00:29:46: Kai Donato: ecosystem?

00:29:48: Alex Nuijten: Would I recommend someone from the

00:29:49: Alex Nuijten: university.

00:29:50: Kai Donato: Come into Oracle Sphere or would you

00:29:54: Kai Donato: suggest everything else like Postgres, open

00:29:57: Kai Donato: source, whatever else technologies out

00:29:59: Kai Donato: there?

00:30:00: Kai Donato: Yeah, that's a hard one.

00:30:02: Alex Nuijten: I don't have an IT background so I switched

00:30:04: Alex Nuijten: careers, so I think it's hard to say so the

00:30:07: Alex Nuijten: Oracle when I started working with Oracle,

00:30:11: Alex Nuijten: it's always been good to me so I can highly

00:30:13: Alex Nuijten: recommend it because that's the positive

00:30:15: Alex Nuijten: experience that I had so far.

00:30:17: Kai Donato: And you're still in it, right.

00:30:18: Alex Nuijten: And I still enjoy it.

00:30:19: Alex Nuijten: I still enjoy it very much, yeah.

00:30:21: Kai Donato: So now you kept it a secret in your own

00:30:24: Kai Donato: introduction earlier in this podcast, and

00:30:26: Kai Donato: now you mentioned, you just switched jobs

00:30:28: Kai Donato: and switched lanes.

00:30:31: Kai Donato: Let me know what happened there.

00:30:32: Kai Donato: What?

00:30:32: Alex Nuijten: happened there.

00:30:33: Alex Nuijten: Okay so, I'm not IT trained.

00:30:36: Alex Nuijten: Okay so in my school, my training was a

00:30:39: Alex Nuijten: physical trained.

00:30:40: Alex Nuijten: Okay so in my school, in my training, I was

00:30:41: Alex Nuijten: a physical therapist.

00:30:43: Alex Nuijten: Okay so, I was in the medical field for a

00:30:45: Alex Nuijten: number of years.

00:30:46: Alex Nuijten: I got bored with that work eventually.

00:30:49: Alex Nuijten: So when I had the chance to basically

00:30:51: Alex Nuijten: switch careers, I thought you know, I'll

00:30:53: Alex Nuijten: give this IT a try.

00:30:55: Alex Nuijten: I didn't know what to expect basically, but

00:30:57: Alex Nuijten: it was the time when, if you could spell IT,

00:31:00: Alex Nuijten: you would get a job in IT.

00:31:02: Alex Nuijten: So that was easy to get a job there.

00:31:05: Alex Nuijten: And so when I worked for the company, they

00:31:08: Alex Nuijten: said oh, we're going to be working with

00:31:10: Alex Nuijten: Oracle and you need to go on this

00:31:12: Alex Nuijten: three-month training course in everything

00:31:15: Alex Nuijten: Oracle, which was SQL, pl, sql forms,

00:31:17: Alex Nuijten: reports designer.

00:31:19: Kai Donato: But not Apex, obviously no, it didn't yeah

00:31:23: Kai Donato: it came later.

00:31:24: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, true so, and I liked it.

00:31:27: Kai Donato: So if I would known that earlier, we might

00:31:30: Kai Donato: have something prepared like a massage

00:31:32: Kai Donato: voucher here at the conference.

00:31:34: Kai Donato: So whoever listens to Devs on Tape can come

00:31:36: Kai Donato: to you at the next conference and get a

00:31:38: Kai Donato: free massage with this voucher right.

00:31:40: Kai Donato: Absolutely Okay, the voucher code is

00:31:42: Kai Donato: devsontape case goal all uppercase and you

00:31:46: Kai Donato: will see Alex at future conferences and

00:31:48: Kai Donato: talk to him like that.

00:31:49: Kai Donato: So we get a little bit of feedback who is

00:31:51: Kai Donato: listening to this.

00:31:53: Alex Nuijten: Then we know who's listening yeah, awesome.

00:31:55: Kai Donato: So coming back to new people in the

00:31:57: Kai Donato: ecosystem, in the Oracle ecosystem.

00:31:59: Alex Nuijten: You have one more that you want to?

00:32:00: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I thought about that, like you said.

00:32:02: Alex Nuijten: Like, oh, if you mentioned this voucher

00:32:03: Alex Nuijten: code, blah, blah, blah, right.

00:32:05: Alex Nuijten: So I thought about it One time.

00:32:06: Alex Nuijten: I thought, well, how do people actually

00:32:08: Alex Nuijten: select?

00:32:08: Alex Nuijten: If you go to a conference, how do you

00:32:09: Alex Nuijten: select your sessions?

00:32:11: Alex Nuijten: Right, so most people that I ask so how do

00:32:13: Alex Nuijten: you?

00:32:14: Alex Nuijten: Well, I look at a title and if the title is

00:32:16: Alex Nuijten: cool, I'll go to that one.

00:32:18: Alex Nuijten: So if they have two sessions at the same

00:32:20: Alex Nuijten: time with a with a good title, well then

00:32:22: Alex Nuijten: I'll might read the apps, read the

00:32:24: Alex Nuijten: abstracts.

00:32:25: Kai Donato: So abstracts don't get read as much as you

00:32:28: Kai Donato: would like Besides, besides the acceptance

00:32:30: Kai Donato: team, right, the who decides yeah, exactly.

00:32:32: Alex Nuijten: So if then you're still not, so then they

00:32:34: Alex Nuijten: look at who's the speaker and then I'll

00:32:36: Alex Nuijten: make a choice.

00:32:37: Alex Nuijten: So I did put it in the abstract one time.

00:32:41: Kai Donato: Oh, you did you kind of like secret code it

00:32:44: Kai Donato: there.

00:32:45: Alex Nuijten: Okay, if you come up to me before the

00:32:46: Alex Nuijten: session and you mentioned this secret

00:32:48: Alex Nuijten: phrase, then oh wow, what a great idea yeah.

00:32:52: Alex Nuijten: And I thought no one would come to me

00:32:54: Alex Nuijten: before the session and actually like four

00:32:56: Alex Nuijten: people was like wow, good prep, yeah me

00:32:59: Alex Nuijten: before the session.

00:32:59: Kai Donato: I like to be like four people.

00:33:00: Kai Donato: I was like, wow, yeah, yeah, it gets right.

00:33:01: Kai Donato: We should do the same at devs on tape show

00:33:02: Kai Donato: notes, right?

00:33:03: Kai Donato: So I guess, no, no one reads it.

00:33:06: Kai Donato: Yeah, we put something in there for this

00:33:07: Kai Donato: episode.

00:33:08: Kai Donato: Maybe we would put another voucher code in

00:33:10: Kai Donato: it for another physo.

00:33:13: Kai Donato: What is it called like physical therapy?

00:33:14: Kai Donato: Physical therapy sessions.

00:33:15: Kai Donato: So you have, I think, you have still

00:33:18: Kai Donato: something to offer even that.

00:33:19: Kai Donato: Yeah, you're so long in the IT now.

00:33:22: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I'm no longer certified anymore, so

00:33:24: Alex Nuijten: let's see.

00:33:28: Kai Donato: I mean, the human body doesn't change right,

00:33:30: Kai Donato: so you are still able to.

00:33:31: Kai Donato: Well, there's still some evolution going on,

00:33:34: Kai Donato: but yeah, it might be something different

00:33:36: Kai Donato: in Europe and in America, right?

00:33:37: Kai Donato: Yeah, it might be something different in

00:33:38: Kai Donato: Europe and in America, right, so let's hop

00:33:40: Kai Donato: over to again maybe something you would

00:33:43: Kai Donato: suggest or recommend to people.

00:33:44: Kai Donato: But if you have like a tools and tricks

00:33:47: Kai Donato: thing, do you have a recommendation for

00:33:49: Kai Donato: each and every Apex developer or Piltz SQL

00:33:51: Kai Donato: developer what to use?

00:33:53: Kai Donato: I make an example like always use Logger,

00:33:56: Kai Donato: right, oh, logger.

00:33:57: Alex Nuijten: The.

00:33:57: Kai Donato: Logger framework if you're writing an.

00:33:59: Kai Donato: Api.

00:34:00: Kai Donato: Do you have any recommendation for a

00:34:02: Kai Donato: must-have tool, must-have framework,

00:34:04: Kai Donato: must-have thingy for every developer out

00:34:09: Kai Donato: there.

00:34:10: Alex Nuijten: No, I agree with you on Logger.

00:34:10: Alex Nuijten: Everybody should use Logger and sprinkle

00:34:12: Alex Nuijten: that throughout your code.

00:34:14: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, here, there and everywhere.

00:34:15: Alex Nuijten: Well, the golden rule if you can do it in

00:34:16: Alex Nuijten: SQL, do it in SQL Before going to PLSQL.

00:34:19: Kai Donato: if you can do it in PLSQL then, and avoid

00:34:22: Kai Donato: doing the context switch right, avoid using

00:34:24: Kai Donato: both.

00:34:25: Kai Donato: Yeah, exactly, if possible, all right.

00:34:27: Alex Nuijten: Keep it clean, Don't do Well.

00:34:30: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, Like I think the most common things

00:34:32: Alex Nuijten: that you would tell people.

00:34:34: Kai Donato: And always watch Alex's presentations and

00:34:37: Kai Donato: recordings.

00:34:37: Kai Donato: Maybe from Apex Connect.

00:34:39: Kai Donato: We have something CaseCode doesn't have.

00:34:43: Kai Donato: And this is the recordings of each and

00:34:45: Kai Donato: every presentation that you can watch after

00:34:47: Kai Donato: that, even with an on-demand code or even

00:34:50: Kai Donato: for free.

00:34:50: Kai Donato: So catch back to the last conferences,

00:34:52: Kai Donato: listen to Alex's talks and then you know

00:34:55: Kai Donato: way more tools and tricks.

00:34:56: Kai Donato: So while I'm just doing the cable

00:34:59: Kai Donato: management over here because I lost my

00:35:01: Kai Donato: headphones, let's move over to our

00:35:03: Kai Donato: categories.

00:35:04: Kai Donato: So this time I prepared you a little bit,

00:35:06: Kai Donato: so you're not that surprised, right?

00:35:09: Kai Donato: So we have three different categories I ask

00:35:11: Kai Donato: you questions from, like the first one is

00:35:13: Kai Donato: hypothetically, the second one is in

00:35:15: Kai Donato: private and the third one is consumption.

00:35:18: Kai Donato: And I'm very surprised now because I did

00:35:20: Kai Donato: the hypothetically part the second time on

00:35:23: Kai Donato: first try.

00:35:24: Kai Donato: This word is like technological, the two

00:35:27: Kai Donato: words that are driving me nuts in the

00:35:29: Kai Donato: categories here.

00:35:29: Kai Donato: I will not replace them.

00:35:32: Kai Donato: Yeah, you have question marks in your face.

00:35:34: Kai Donato: Yeah, I have problems to say the words

00:35:36: Kai Donato: basically.

00:35:37: Kai Donato: And each and every episode.

00:35:39: Kai Donato: It might be a running gag that I try to say

00:35:41: Kai Donato: them, but today is a good day.

00:35:43: Alex Nuijten: Today is a good day, it worked pretty good,

00:35:44: Alex Nuijten: so let's dive into the categories.

00:35:46: Kai Donato: So, hypothetically, what do you estimate?

00:35:50: Kai Donato: What will your daily work look like in 10

00:35:52: Kai Donato: years from now?

00:35:53: Alex Nuijten: Oh, okay, so AI is big nowadays, right?

00:35:58: Alex Nuijten: So I was having this discussion with my son

00:36:01: Alex Nuijten: like a couple of weeks ago, and he asked me

00:36:03: Alex Nuijten: like so is your job going to disappear

00:36:05: Alex Nuijten: because of AI?

00:36:06: Alex Nuijten: And I said, well, what do you mean?

00:36:07: Alex Nuijten: He said, well, you can just ask AI to.

00:36:11: Alex Nuijten: I want to create, I want to have an

00:36:12: Alex Nuijten: application that does this, that and the

00:36:14: Alex Nuijten: other, and it will generate for you in

00:36:16: Alex Nuijten: works and so on, so we don't need you

00:36:18: Alex Nuijten: anymore.

00:36:19: Alex Nuijten: That's what you told me.

00:36:20: Alex Nuijten: Oh, that's a nice thing to hear from.

00:36:22: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, Well, he's yeah, Okay.

00:36:24: Alex Nuijten: Well, I can take it from him.

00:36:26: Alex Nuijten: I can take it.

00:36:26: Alex Nuijten: Okay, I can't fight him anyway.

00:36:29: Alex Nuijten: And I told him well, the problem is not

00:36:32: Alex Nuijten: that it can generate stuff and it'll create

00:36:34: Alex Nuijten: an application for you.

00:36:36: Alex Nuijten: The problem will be, like, there's no end

00:36:38: Alex Nuijten: users that actually know what they want, so

00:36:41: Alex Nuijten: if they have to write a prompt to actually

00:36:43: Alex Nuijten: generate something, they'll never get what

00:36:46: Alex Nuijten: they need.

00:36:48: Alex Nuijten: Because it's the hardest part.

00:36:50: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, exactly, the hardest part of the job

00:36:52: Alex Nuijten: that we do it's not the coding, it's not

00:36:55: Alex Nuijten: the creating of the apps, that's not the

00:36:58: Alex Nuijten: hard part.

00:36:58: Alex Nuijten: The hard part is figuring out, like if

00:36:59: Alex Nuijten: someone tells you, oh, I want to have this

00:37:02: Alex Nuijten: kind of functionality, they really don't

00:37:04: Alex Nuijten: know what kind of functionality they want.

00:37:07: Alex Nuijten: So the hard part is getting the right

00:37:09: Alex Nuijten: information so you know what people

00:37:11: Alex Nuijten: actually need to do their job or to do

00:37:14: Alex Nuijten: whatever application we use.

00:37:15: Kai Donato: So you would say, in 10 years from now

00:37:17: Kai Donato: you're doing the same as now, but the stuff

00:37:19: Kai Donato: around will change.

00:37:20: Alex Nuijten: Well, I think the job itself will change

00:37:23: Alex Nuijten: more to consultancy in getting your

00:37:26: Alex Nuijten: interviews, or actually sitting down with

00:37:30: Alex Nuijten: people to try to come up with the correct

00:37:32: Alex Nuijten: prompts to generate whatever you want, and

00:37:37: Alex Nuijten: I think it would shift more towards that

00:37:40: Alex Nuijten: side.

00:37:41: Alex Nuijten: Okay, now a prediction.

00:37:42: Kai Donato: Apex Lang is coming up.

00:37:44: Kai Donato: You are going to prompt engineering, and

00:37:47: Kai Donato: your next chapter in a book would be how to

00:37:49: Kai Donato: improve my prompts using AI, creating Apex

00:37:53: Kai Donato: Lang applications.

00:37:54: Kai Donato: Yeah well, there you go, use it, take it,

00:37:57: Kai Donato: it's yours now.

00:37:58: Kai Donato: So another prediction from this episode so

00:38:00: Kai Donato: now I'm trying to stretch this question so

00:38:02: Kai Donato: you can come up with a technological trend

00:38:04: Kai Donato: you want to undo.

00:38:05: Kai Donato: All right, I could give you some, some

00:38:07: Kai Donato: examples, but they that were that might

00:38:09: Kai Donato: burn that might burn.

00:38:10: Kai Donato: Yeah, yeah, burn what you could think of.

00:38:13: Alex Nuijten: I still like natural.

00:38:14: Alex Nuijten: I think each technology has something to

00:38:17: Alex Nuijten: add to well-being of life.

00:38:20: Alex Nuijten: I think one of the things that is something

00:38:24: Alex Nuijten: that is well, it worries me a bit.

00:38:26: Alex Nuijten: Well, worry is a big word, but like when I

00:38:29: Alex Nuijten: was young, way back when, way back when.

00:38:31: Alex Nuijten: Yes, yes.

00:38:31: Alex Nuijten: So we would just go outside and play and do

00:38:33: Alex Nuijten: stuff and like be gone for the whole day.

00:38:36: Alex Nuijten: So that doesn't happen anymore.

00:38:39: Alex Nuijten: Most kids have a phone so parents keep

00:38:42: Alex Nuijten: track of their, their kids, wherever they

00:38:44: Alex Nuijten: are.

00:38:44: Alex Nuijten: They are on the screen like a lot of the

00:38:47: Alex Nuijten: time.

00:38:47: Alex Nuijten: Like with so many hours they should

00:38:49: Alex Nuijten: actually get strains, the kids getting weak

00:38:53: Alex Nuijten: eyes because they look at the screen all

00:38:55: Alex Nuijten: the time.

00:38:55: Alex Nuijten: So I think that is, that is worrisome.

00:38:57: Kai Donato: You might not think that it's like this,

00:39:00: Kai Donato: but I remember still going out being thrown

00:39:04: Kai Donato: out at home to say like go to this or this

00:39:07: Kai Donato: place and ask if they want to come out and

00:39:09: Kai Donato: play.

00:39:10: Kai Donato: Yeah exactly.

00:39:11: Kai Donato: So this is gone.

00:39:12: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, if you want to meet with someone, you

00:39:15: Alex Nuijten: actually have to go there ring the bell,

00:39:17: Alex Nuijten: Exactly.

00:39:18: Kai Donato: This doesn't change in the time frame

00:39:20: Kai Donato: between when you were young and I was young.

00:39:23: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, true, but I think that is something

00:39:26: Alex Nuijten: that I wouldn't mind being without.

00:39:28: Kai Donato: So the whole technological movement from,

00:39:33: Kai Donato: or journey from, just having one phone at

00:39:37: Kai Donato: home, maybe a computer or something, to

00:39:39: Kai Donato: being connected all the time and doesn't

00:39:41: Kai Donato: have the necessity to go play out yeah,

00:39:44: Kai Donato: exactly.

00:39:44: Alex Nuijten: So I think that is somewhat worrisome okay,

00:39:48: Alex Nuijten: next category in private.

00:39:52: Kai Donato: I need some, some bumper here.

00:39:56: Kai Donato: So today this was the first time I was

00:39:58: Kai Donato: using the playset.

00:39:59: Alex Nuijten: The soundboard yeah.

00:40:00: Kai Donato: Try to get some.

00:40:05: Kai Donato: I just have to remember where those sounds

00:40:07: Kai Donato: are at.

00:40:08: Kai Donato: No, in private.

00:40:09: Kai Donato: Yeah, are you satisfied with your work-life

00:40:11: Kai Donato: balance currently?

00:40:14: Alex Nuijten: Yes, currently I am, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah,

00:40:18: Alex Nuijten: it was like, like I said, I do regularly go

00:40:21: Alex Nuijten: to conferences, so it gives me like a break

00:40:23: Alex Nuijten: from work and I think it's a nice balance.

00:40:26: Alex Nuijten: That is not necessarily work life, but it

00:40:28: Alex Nuijten: well.

00:40:29: Alex Nuijten: No, it is Because if you're good at work,

00:40:32: Alex Nuijten: you're happy in life, right?

00:40:33: Alex Nuijten: Sure, happy wife, happy life.

00:40:34: Kai Donato: And the other way around right and the

00:40:35: Kai Donato: other way around, right and the other way

00:40:37: Kai Donato: around yeah.

00:40:38: Alex Nuijten: So when COVID hit, the COVID year hit like

00:40:41: Alex Nuijten: all conferences were canceled.

00:40:43: Alex Nuijten: So what else are you going to do?

00:40:44: Alex Nuijten: So I just, instead of going to conferences,

00:40:47: Alex Nuijten: I worked.

00:40:48: Alex Nuijten: So I worked many hours in that year and

00:40:53: Alex Nuijten: then it was like, well, at the end of the

00:40:55: Alex Nuijten: year I was like I'm not going to do that

00:40:56: Alex Nuijten: anymore.

00:40:57: Alex Nuijten: So I started cutting back on the number of

00:40:59: Alex Nuijten: hours that I would work and that was good

00:41:02: Alex Nuijten: and so it wasn't the same, but like the

00:41:04: Alex Nuijten: same as going to conferences no, exactly,

00:41:06: Alex Nuijten: but so I.

00:41:07: Alex Nuijten: So I changed from working five days to back

00:41:10: Alex Nuijten: to four days and I was like I have a longer

00:41:12: Alex Nuijten: weekend and I really like that one, so now

00:41:15: Alex Nuijten: I started that one.

00:41:15: Alex Nuijten: So now work is starting to pick up again

00:41:18: Alex Nuijten: and I think currently I'm going back to six

00:41:20: Alex Nuijten: days a week.

00:41:21: Kai Donato: So that's also not good, but if you have

00:41:25: Kai Donato: the possibility, if it's an option for you

00:41:28: Kai Donato: and the customers are there, the projects

00:41:29: Kai Donato: are there and you can do it, it's possibly

00:41:32: Kai Donato: a way to end up right so yeah exactly yes

00:41:37: Kai Donato: again not to mention how long do we still

00:41:39: Kai Donato: have right?

00:41:40: Alex Nuijten: so this would be would be a bad thing.

00:41:42: Alex Nuijten: Again about the age right trying to avoid

00:41:45: Alex Nuijten: that, but it's just, yeah, so tempting, we

00:41:47: Alex Nuijten: always circle back to it, yeah exactly.

00:41:49: Kai Donato: so I am a little bit frightened about when

00:41:52: Kai Donato: I hit the record button and the session's

00:41:54: Kai Donato: over.

00:41:54: Kai Donato: Alex might throw his knowledge about my.

00:41:59: Kai Donato: Alright, let's go to the next category

00:42:01: Kai Donato: Consumption.

00:42:03: Kai Donato: How do you deal with the growing flood of

00:42:05: Kai Donato: information via various channels?

00:42:07: Kai Donato: So like I think I have to rewrite those

00:42:10: Kai Donato: questions, because I always have to I have

00:42:12: Kai Donato: to explain one Exactly.

00:42:13: Kai Donato: So, having like a phone on the table right

00:42:16: Kai Donato: now, notifications coming in about each and

00:42:18: Kai Donato: every single thing that's happening, not

00:42:20: Kai Donato: even just for you, like news, weather

00:42:24: Kai Donato: updates and whatever how do you deal with

00:42:26: Kai Donato: it?

00:42:27: Alex Nuijten: Turn everything off, or maybe just yeah,

00:42:30: Alex Nuijten: like for notification wise, most of them

00:42:33: Alex Nuijten: are switched off, like it's only a few

00:42:35: Alex Nuijten: things that I want to keep up to date with.

00:42:37: Alex Nuijten: What are those?

00:42:38: Alex Nuijten: News, news, news, news News.

00:42:41: Alex Nuijten: So it's not always breaking news and so I

00:42:45: Alex Nuijten: like to get up to date with those.

00:42:47: Alex Nuijten: Of course, if there's a mail that I get

00:42:49: Alex Nuijten: that I see notification.

00:42:50: Alex Nuijten: Okay, I really like that you can shut off

00:42:53: Alex Nuijten: notification for a certain amount of time

00:42:55: Alex Nuijten: or just like snooze or not to do it.

00:42:58: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, but exactly so we keep quiet for a

00:43:00: Alex Nuijten: number of hours, or something like that,

00:43:02: Alex Nuijten: okay.

00:43:03: Kai Donato: Yeah, A little callback.

00:43:05: Kai Donato: The next question to how do you consume

00:43:08: Kai Donato: news and new knowledge?

00:43:09: Kai Donato: So you already said you're preparing for

00:43:11: Kai Donato: writing a book.

00:43:12: Kai Donato: I'm not writing a book.

00:43:14: Alex Nuijten: I'm just jinxing it.

00:43:15: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, I know.

00:43:16: Kai Donato: Wrong wrong, wrong time.

00:43:17: Kai Donato: So you prepared back in the days for

00:43:20: Kai Donato: writing a book about JSON, so at this point

00:43:23: Kai Donato: you tried to gather information and

00:43:24: Kai Donato: research about that.

00:43:28: Kai Donato: How do you consume those new features?

00:43:29: Kai Donato: Are there blog posts or are you reading

00:43:30: Kai Donato: newsletters, twitter or magazines, or do

00:43:34: Kai Donato: you simply read books?

00:43:38: Alex Nuijten: Well, my go-to source for most things

00:43:42: Alex Nuijten: technological are still the oracle docs.

00:43:46: Kai Donato: Okay, to start with yeah, sounds a little

00:43:48: Kai Donato: so if I compare like social media or

00:43:50: Kai Donato: newsletters.

00:43:51: Kai Donato: Oracle docs sounds a little bit.

00:43:53: Kai Donato: Oh, I'm not gonna say anything about that.

00:43:58: Alex Nuijten: yeah, I find that the docs are most of the

00:44:00: Alex Nuijten: time really good.

00:44:00: Alex Nuijten: The only problem with that is, like you

00:44:02: Alex Nuijten: said, it's not an easy format to read.

00:44:05: Alex Nuijten: Like there's like there can be in like one

00:44:07: Alex Nuijten: paragraph.

00:44:08: Alex Nuijten: There's so much detail that are very subtle

00:44:11: Alex Nuijten: in how it works that you have to read them

00:44:14: Alex Nuijten: a couple of times.

00:44:15: Alex Nuijten: So if there's something about like I don't

00:44:17: Alex Nuijten: know, time zones compared to time zones,

00:44:19: Alex Nuijten: with timestamps, with time zones or without,

00:44:21: Alex Nuijten: and that kind of stuff, so it can be one

00:44:23: Alex Nuijten: paragraph that basically explains all the

00:44:25: Alex Nuijten: differences, okay, but to repeat all those

00:44:28: Alex Nuijten: differences, that's kind of like.

00:44:29: Alex Nuijten: So there are some very subtle things they

00:44:32: Alex Nuijten: haven't described.

00:44:34: Alex Nuijten: So that requires a lot of study there.

00:44:37: Kai Donato: So you're on goodnight lecture, if you have

00:44:39: Kai Donato: your iPad with you or your phone is just

00:44:42: Kai Donato: opening Oracle.

00:44:43: Alex Nuijten: Docs.

00:44:45: Alex Nuijten: So there's no human interaction, like blog

00:44:47: Alex Nuijten: posting, but I also like the Ask Tom office

00:44:53: Alex Nuijten: hours.

00:44:53: Alex Nuijten: I also like those Most of the time not live,

00:44:56: Alex Nuijten: to be honest.

00:44:57: Alex Nuijten: So if I need for a specific topic I don't

00:45:01: Alex Nuijten: know Apex and Spatial stuff like that,

00:45:04: Alex Nuijten: karsten always knows everything about that

00:45:06: Alex Nuijten: one.

00:45:06: Alex Nuijten: So I always try to pick out those like the

00:45:08: Alex Nuijten: recorded, pre-recorded sessions in office

00:45:11: Alex Nuijten: hours and I mostly skip to whatever Karsten

00:45:13: Alex Nuijten: is saying and I take his word for it.

00:45:16: Kai Donato: So Speed it up and then just consume

00:45:18: Kai Donato: everything he says.

00:45:19: Alex Nuijten: Yeah, exactly.

00:45:19: Kai Donato: Yeah, all right, awesome.

00:45:21: Kai Donato: So we are done with the categories, and

00:45:25: Kai Donato: this means now I'm greeting Carol back in

00:45:29: Kai Donato: Germany, still waiting for her first child.

00:45:33: Kai Donato: So everything good, carol, I hope you liked

00:45:37: Kai Donato: this episode and having fun cutting it.

00:45:40: Kai Donato: And yeah, thank you for listening everyone

00:45:43: Kai Donato: and thank you for attending.

00:45:44: Kai Donato: Thank you for accepting my invite, alex,

00:45:47: Kai Donato: and we set the vouchers up real soon.

00:45:50: Alex Nuijten: Thank you very much.

00:45:51: Alex Nuijten: Thank you for inviting me.

00:45:52: Kai Donato: Yeah, and have a great conference, and you

00:45:54: Kai Donato: too, thank you no-transcript.