Dimitri Gielis - From Data Enthusiast to APEX Innovator: Dimitri Gielis on Pioneering Oracle Solutions

00:00:13: Kai: Hello and welcome to another episode of

00:00:15: Kai: Devs on Tape Today, again from Rust in

00:00:18: Kai: Germany at the Apex Connect 2025.

00:00:22: Kai: And unfortunately this episode will be

00:00:24: Kai: without Caro.

00:00:25: Kai: She's awaiting her child, as we mentioned a

00:00:27: Kai: few weeks before in another episode of Devs

00:00:30: Kai: on Tape.

00:00:30: Kai: So I'm all alone with a very great guest

00:00:33: Kai: today.

00:00:34: Kai: So I'm glad to welcome Dimitri Gehles to

00:00:36: Kai: this podcast.

00:00:37: Kai: Hey Dimitri, hey Kai.

00:00:39: Dimitri Gielis: How are you doing?

00:00:39: Dimitri Gielis: I'm doing wonderful.

00:00:41: Dimitri Gielis: It's very nice to be here, very nice to see

00:00:43: Dimitri Gielis: you again, great, great.

00:00:45: Kai: Yeah, thank you for accepting our

00:00:47: Kai: invitation.

00:00:47: Kai: So we thought you are a very great career

00:00:51: Kai: and a very great guy to talk about business

00:00:53: Kai: development in the Apex environment because

00:00:56: Kai: of your company and we will talk about that

00:01:00: Kai: in this episode.

00:01:01: Kai: So you're here at the episode.

00:01:03: Kai: The apex connect with two presentations.

00:01:05: Kai: Maybe we just do a little short

00:01:07: Kai: introduction into this, uh, into your

00:01:11: Kai: career before.

00:01:12: Kai: So before we dive in into the topics,

00:01:14: Kai: please introduce yourself, sorry yeah, so

00:01:17: Kai: dimitri hinis, I'm from belgium.

00:01:19: Dimitri Gielis: I'm very passionate about apex and oracle.

00:01:23: Dimitri Gielis: So when I saw like data for the first time

00:01:27: Dimitri Gielis: when I was a kid of 10 years old, like I

00:01:29: Dimitri Gielis: wanted to do something with it and with

00:01:32: Dimitri Gielis: this data.

00:01:33: Dimitri Gielis: So then I decided like, uh, what is the

00:01:36: Dimitri Gielis: best database in the world?

00:01:37: Dimitri Gielis: It was Oracle joined Oracle and 2004,.

00:01:41: Dimitri Gielis: I saw Apex said this is the best thing to

00:01:45: Dimitri Gielis: do something with this data and show it and

00:01:47: Dimitri Gielis: bring it to the people.

00:01:50: Dimitri Gielis: So I decided to only focus on Apex and the

00:01:52: Dimitri Gielis: database.

00:01:53: Dimitri Gielis: And so this is now.

00:01:54: Dimitri Gielis: We are 25 years later or even longer, and

00:01:59: Dimitri Gielis: so, yeah, it's only Apex and a company only

00:02:03: Dimitri Gielis: doing Apex.

00:02:04: Kai: So yeah, it's great, great to see that a

00:02:06: Kai: business evolves just inside this.

00:02:09: Kai: I call it small ecosystem, right?

00:02:10: Kai: Yes, yes.

00:02:11: Kai: And still sticking to Apex after 25 years

00:02:14: Kai: is a real passion, right.

00:02:15: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, but also we can be very grateful

00:02:18: Dimitri Gielis: inside the community, like who thought that

00:02:20: Dimitri Gielis: 20 years ago you would bet on a technology

00:02:23: Dimitri Gielis: that was not known?

00:02:24: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, and like at the end of the day, it's

00:02:27: Dimitri Gielis: a web and a web changes so fast.

00:02:29: Dimitri Gielis: But like apex is still there, and like if

00:02:32: Dimitri Gielis: you had done something in angular 1.0, you

00:02:34: Dimitri Gielis: had to rewrite everything in angular 2.0.

00:02:37: Dimitri Gielis: And like javascript is like, every new

00:02:41: Dimitri Gielis: month there's a new framework.

00:02:42: Dimitri Gielis: Like we are very fortunate with Apex, I

00:02:45: Dimitri Gielis: think.

00:02:46: Dimitri Gielis: And like I really like the community too.

00:02:49: Kai: Like it's a small group.

00:02:51: Kai: You are using JavaScript technology very

00:02:53: Kai: heavily in your products, right?

00:02:55: Kai: Of course, this episode will not be bashing

00:02:58: Kai: between Apex and web development right?

00:03:01: Dimitri Gielis: No, absolutely not.

00:03:03: Dimitri Gielis: Because, like, I think everybody of us and

00:03:05: Dimitri Gielis: you're very good in that too like you

00:03:07: Dimitri Gielis: should look at everything that is happening

00:03:10: Dimitri Gielis: in web technology and try to bring that

00:03:12: Dimitri Gielis: into Apex and like, and this is what we are

00:03:15: Dimitri Gielis: doing, like we are looking at, like, how

00:03:18: Dimitri Gielis: documents are being treated in other

00:03:19: Dimitri Gielis: technologies, how, like Gantt charts or

00:03:22: Dimitri Gielis: like special, like cool things.

00:03:25: Dimitri Gielis: How can we bring this into Apex?

00:03:27: Dimitri Gielis: And like this is yeah, you have you build

00:03:30: Dimitri Gielis: plugins for JavaScript.

00:03:31: Dimitri Gielis: You did a very nice one.

00:03:32: Dimitri Gielis: So like, yeah, you should definitely look

00:03:36: Dimitri Gielis: at that.

00:03:36: Dimitri Gielis: And it's not about like JavaScript is bad,

00:03:38: Dimitri Gielis: like everybody should do Apex.

00:03:40: Dimitri Gielis: It's definitely not that I think every

00:03:42: Dimitri Gielis: technology is there and actually we use

00:03:45: Dimitri Gielis: like Nodejs behind the scenes to build AOP,

00:03:48: Dimitri Gielis: for example.

00:03:48: Dimitri Gielis: Like, so there's, you need everything.

00:03:51: Kai: Definitely so when you talk about passion

00:03:54: Kai: inside the community.

00:03:55: Kai: So you contributed so much and I think one

00:03:58: Kai: piece I guess it was two years or three

00:04:00: Kai: years ago at Kscope you showed how

00:04:02: Kai: passionate you are with Apex right.

00:04:04: Kai: Or three years ago at Kscope, you showed

00:04:05: Kai: how passionate you are with Apex, right.

00:04:06: Kai: So you did this Steve Ballmer impression of

00:04:08: Kai: Apex like running in front of the group.

00:04:17: Kai: I think this clip got gone viral inside our

00:04:18: Kai: community.

00:04:19: Kai: But that's something I was never expecting

00:04:20: Kai: from you to be so extrovert and run into

00:04:21: Kai: like before 100, 200 people and really

00:04:24: Kai: shouting and screaming and showing what

00:04:28: Kai: passion you have for Apex.

00:04:29: Kai: That was quite nice.

00:04:30: Dimitri Gielis: But it's also like you evolve as a person

00:04:34: Dimitri Gielis: and like I'm very like people, I think they

00:04:37: Dimitri Gielis: see me as like quiet or like a friendly and

00:04:41: Dimitri Gielis: like not trying to be up there.

00:04:47: Dimitri Gielis: like a friendly and like not trying to be

00:04:48: Dimitri Gielis: up there, but I was talking to connor and

00:04:49: Dimitri Gielis: like he had this idea about like doing

00:04:50: Dimitri Gielis: steve valmer and like, yeah, we were like

00:04:52: Dimitri Gielis: talking about that and like it was this

00:04:55: Dimitri Gielis: thursday, I think, like everybody was a bit

00:04:57: Dimitri Gielis: tired after the party, I remember, and I

00:04:59: Dimitri Gielis: really wanted to get like the energy up

00:05:02: Dimitri Gielis: again in the room and this is why I said,

00:05:04: Dimitri Gielis: okay, I will try this, and it was really

00:05:06: Dimitri Gielis: out of my comfort zone.

00:05:08: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah so, but it was fun to do and like

00:05:10: Dimitri Gielis: neil's like, so now when I go into a

00:05:14: Dimitri Gielis: conference, the the next month, it was like,

00:05:16: Dimitri Gielis: oh, can you do this again?

00:05:17: Kai: yeah, so exactly I did it two more times

00:05:20: Kai: and you did two more times and and this

00:05:22: Kai: time they they recorded that and even

00:05:24: Kai: played it on other conferences so they can

00:05:26: Kai: see, even if you're not around.

00:05:28: Kai: Yeah, I mean great, I was so happy to see

00:05:31: Kai: that.

00:05:32: Kai: And yeah, as you said, as a quiet person,

00:05:33: Kai: or being known as a quiet person, and then

00:05:36: Kai: you come outside and show everyone your

00:05:39: Kai: passion for Apex is very great.

00:05:41: Kai: So you're not only attending conferences

00:05:43: Kai: and you're not only running your business,

00:05:45: Kai: you're also presenting very heavily, I

00:05:47: Kai: guess, at each and every conference, right?

00:05:50: Dimitri Gielis: I used to do a lot more presentations, but

00:05:52: Dimitri Gielis: now I hope that there's new, new people

00:05:56: Dimitri Gielis: wanting to step in into us as old guys, and

00:06:00: Dimitri Gielis: so this is why I try to do a bit less less

00:06:03: Dimitri Gielis: of presentations.

00:06:04: Dimitri Gielis: Like this year, I will only do one

00:06:06: Dimitri Gielis: presentation at like the conferences, and

00:06:09: Dimitri Gielis: maybe like one extra for like the vendor

00:06:12: Dimitri Gielis: presentation.

00:06:12: Kai: Yes, Sponsored session right.

00:06:14: Kai: Yes.

00:06:15: Dimitri Gielis: So, yeah, but I hope that, like many new

00:06:18: Dimitri Gielis: people will actually come, and I will want

00:06:21: Dimitri Gielis: to help them to to to be able to do this.

00:06:24: Dimitri Gielis: I think there's nothing better than share

00:06:26: Dimitri Gielis: your like, what you like, what you learned

00:06:29: Dimitri Gielis: and be a bit out of your comfort zone.

00:06:31: Kai: I think that's yeah, it's very good for you

00:06:34: Kai: as a person, exactly, and this is what the

00:06:36: Kai: community needs.

00:06:46: Kai: Strange, strange of of our community that

00:06:47: Kai: we are very.

00:06:47: Kai: We think it's very important to get the new

00:06:48: Kai: people in and show them that, even if they

00:06:49: Kai: are uncomfortable presenting or going in

00:06:51: Kai: front of people, that it's even foremost in

00:06:55: Kai: this conference, in this community.

00:06:56: Dimitri Gielis: it's no problem to go on stage and being

00:06:59: Dimitri Gielis: the newbie because there's no bad feelings

00:07:01: Dimitri Gielis: about that and no, no bad feedback I guess,

00:07:04: Dimitri Gielis: and yeah, this is like our community is

00:07:06: Dimitri Gielis: very friendly, I think yeah, and so they

00:07:09: Dimitri Gielis: want to support and they want you to

00:07:10: Dimitri Gielis: succeed and they will like we are very

00:07:13: Dimitri Gielis: helpful, everybody is very helpful so yeah

00:07:16: Dimitri Gielis: it's very.

00:07:17: Kai: We have to go forward with that great.

00:07:19: Kai: So, talking about the presentation, so I

00:07:21: Kai: was reading your abstract and I was very

00:07:23: Kai: interested in in what you, what you are

00:07:25: Kai: going to talk about tomorrow, the the.

00:07:27: Kai: The title of the abstract is my dream

00:07:29: Kai: bringing apex to mars.

00:07:31: Kai: So tell me about that so it's.

00:07:33: Dimitri Gielis: It's something that I had in my mind for a

00:07:35: Dimitri Gielis: long time.

00:07:37: Dimitri Gielis: So first it was like, if you look at the

00:07:39: Dimitri Gielis: career, it was in 2007.

00:07:42: Dimitri Gielis: Like, like I was more like oh, we have to

00:07:45: Dimitri Gielis: evangelize apex, that people use apex

00:07:48: Dimitri Gielis: across the world.

00:07:49: Dimitri Gielis: So then the focus was more on that.

00:07:51: Dimitri Gielis: Then it was like uh, we're going to do

00:07:53: Dimitri Gielis: consulting to really help people.

00:07:57: Dimitri Gielis: Pretend like you can make 10 to 100

00:07:59: Dimitri Gielis: customers happy if you have more people to

00:08:01: Dimitri Gielis: do more projects.

00:08:03: Dimitri Gielis: So how can you make a bigger impact?

00:08:05: Dimitri Gielis: So by building products.

00:08:07: Dimitri Gielis: This is like 10 years ago we built aop and

00:08:09: Dimitri Gielis: like we start to build other products so we

00:08:12: Dimitri Gielis: reach many more people, but still you have

00:08:14: Dimitri Gielis: like you can go up to 10 000 maybe

00:08:17: Dimitri Gielis: customers to help.

00:08:19: Dimitri Gielis: So I wanted to like my last dance.

00:08:24: Dimitri Gielis: I call it Hopefully, not.

00:08:27: Dimitri Gielis: Well, I'm like 47 now, come on.

00:08:39: Dimitri Gielis: So I wanted to do something with even more

00:08:42: Dimitri Gielis: impact on like leave a legacy, if you want,

00:08:44: Dimitri Gielis: help humanity.

00:08:49: Dimitri Gielis: So I really like technology and I like like

00:08:51: Dimitri Gielis: smart buildings and ai and I like that kind

00:08:52: Dimitri Gielis: of thing.

00:08:52: Dimitri Gielis: So I had a dream, like 10 years ago, to

00:08:53: Dimitri Gielis: build like this smart office, smart home,

00:08:56: Dimitri Gielis: and so we did that.

00:08:58: Dimitri Gielis: We almost finished it like five years ago.

00:09:00: Dimitri Gielis: We started with it and this presentation is

00:09:02: Dimitri Gielis: a bit about this journey.

00:09:04: Dimitri Gielis: But, of course, like the title is bring

00:09:06: Dimitri Gielis: Apex to Mars.

00:09:09: Dimitri Gielis: So I'm very passionate about Apex and

00:09:11: Dimitri Gielis: during this time I thought I thought, like

00:09:16: Dimitri Gielis: how can we do something really like big?

00:09:20: Dimitri Gielis: And so my, my dream is that we build a

00:09:22: Dimitri Gielis: platform in Apex of course, in Oracle which

00:09:26: Dimitri Gielis: can support those smart buildings.

00:09:28: Dimitri Gielis: This would be phase one, but the ultimate

00:09:30: Dimitri Gielis: goal is to build a platform so good that we

00:09:34: Dimitri Gielis: could go to Mars, Like if we ever go to

00:09:36: Dimitri Gielis: Mars or the moon, that we would be able to

00:09:39: Dimitri Gielis: run this very controlled environment, Like

00:09:42: Dimitri Gielis: if we have to build the cities there.

00:09:44: Dimitri Gielis: Like that the platform that we are building

00:09:46: Dimitri Gielis: now would be able to support that.

00:09:49: Kai: That's a very long distance thinking, I

00:09:53: Kai: guess.

00:09:54: Kai: But yeah, if they decide to go on Mars and

00:09:57: Kai: having an Oracle database there, for

00:09:59: Kai: instance, and running Apex on that, I think

00:10:02: Kai: it's quite good idea.

00:10:04: Dimitri Gielis: It has to be rock solid and Apex is quite

00:10:06: Dimitri Gielis: rock solid, I think, like, which database

00:10:08: Dimitri Gielis: do you want to put out there?

00:10:10: Dimitri Gielis: So, yeah, I it's a 10, for me it's a 10

00:10:12: Dimitri Gielis: year project.

00:10:13: Dimitri Gielis: I think, like AOP turned 10 years, like you

00:10:17: Dimitri Gielis: need years to make it really good.

00:10:19: Dimitri Gielis: So we will try it here.

00:10:20: Dimitri Gielis: Maybe we'll just do smart building, smart

00:10:22: Dimitri Gielis: city and see how far we get with it.

00:10:25: Dimitri Gielis: But try it here.

00:10:25: Kai: Maybe we'll just do smart building smart

00:10:27: Kai: city and see how far we get with it, but my

00:10:28: Kai: dream is to bring apex to mars.

00:10:29: Kai: So this is just not just a fun project,

00:10:30: Kai: right?

00:10:30: Kai: So doing serious like infrastructure and

00:10:34: Kai: and building manageable buildings and and

00:10:37: Kai: so on in apex right, yeah, yeah, so like,

00:10:39: Kai: but we are starting with this.

00:10:41: Dimitri Gielis: This is it will go iterative and like,

00:10:44: Dimitri Gielis: we'll see where we come Like.

00:10:46: Dimitri Gielis: Maybe we never make it, who knows?

00:10:49: Kai: But the journey is sometimes great yeah.

00:10:51: Dimitri Gielis: We, you have to enjoy the journey, not the

00:10:54: Dimitri Gielis: end goal.

00:10:54: Dimitri Gielis: Like this is something I learned.

00:10:56: Dimitri Gielis: Like, oh, I want to do this, I want to do

00:10:57: Dimitri Gielis: that.

00:10:58: Dimitri Gielis: No, you have to enjoy, like the way to.

00:11:01: Kai: yeah the way to.

00:11:01: Kai: Yeah, the way to exactly.

00:11:03: Kai: So you're talking about the new

00:11:04: Kai: headquarters of united code, so I guess I I

00:11:07: Kai: heard some voices from from colleagues that

00:11:09: Kai: that, that that you really built so many

00:11:12: Kai: unique technology things and in this

00:11:15: Kai: building, so maybe you can talk about that

00:11:18: Kai: so we are so busy with that.

00:11:19: Dimitri Gielis: but uh, so if you look at so this, this new

00:11:23: Dimitri Gielis: HQ, unitecodes HQ, if you want to call it

00:11:26: Dimitri Gielis: that way like it's a building, it's like a

00:11:29: Dimitri Gielis: very modern building.

00:11:31: Dimitri Gielis: It's some kind of like how should I say

00:11:34: Dimitri Gielis: like residential or a villa kind of thing.

00:11:36: Dimitri Gielis: Like you have a private area, you have a

00:11:38: Dimitri Gielis: office space, but it's like all built that

00:11:41: Dimitri Gielis: people would feel very warm welcome, and

00:11:45: Dimitri Gielis: like it's full of technology.

00:11:47: Dimitri Gielis: So in every aspect we try to put like a

00:11:51: Dimitri Gielis: story behind it.

00:11:52: Dimitri Gielis: Like so we have two hotel rooms, for

00:11:54: Dimitri Gielis: example, the beds.

00:11:56: Dimitri Gielis: Like they have a story Like why would you

00:11:58: Dimitri Gielis: have like two mattresses versus one

00:12:00: Dimitri Gielis: mattress?

00:12:00: Dimitri Gielis: Why like elevated and everything is full of

00:12:03: Dimitri Gielis: sensors.

00:12:07: Dimitri Gielis: There are cameras too.

00:12:07: Dimitri Gielis: There's like voice, like we want to combine

00:12:08: Dimitri Gielis: all the different things so it's not just

00:12:10: Dimitri Gielis: voice control of the house, it's you give

00:12:14: Dimitri Gielis: the house vision, voice and all the data,

00:12:17: Dimitri Gielis: so energy.

00:12:19: Dimitri Gielis: Like everything is being monitored, so we

00:12:21: Dimitri Gielis: have so many cables like in my presentation

00:12:24: Dimitri Gielis: I will show a few pictures what we have.

00:12:26: Dimitri Gielis: But so now, like the first step was to

00:12:29: Dimitri Gielis: build the, the office and the space, and

00:12:32: Dimitri Gielis: like getting the the right sensors, and so

00:12:35: Dimitri Gielis: we did some research on like, which sensor

00:12:36: Dimitri Gielis: do we need?

00:12:38: Dimitri Gielis: But now we are in the stage of okay, the

00:12:40: Dimitri Gielis: house is almost done, we have the sensor,

00:12:42: Dimitri Gielis: we have some kind of data, but we have to

00:12:44: Dimitri Gielis: still combine it, we have to put the ai

00:12:47: Dimitri Gielis: there and we already see, like, how do you

00:12:50: Dimitri Gielis: work with, like, privacy, security, like

00:12:54: Dimitri Gielis: all those things, some people they don't

00:12:56: Dimitri Gielis: like to be filmed yeah, especially like I

00:12:58: Dimitri Gielis: think in germany, it's a very definitely

00:13:00: Dimitri Gielis: yeah so this is how do you deal with that.

00:13:04: Dimitri Gielis: But like our camera, for example, it will

00:13:06: Dimitri Gielis: recognize you if it knows you.

00:13:10: Kai: I was about to ask that, if it already

00:13:12: Kai: knows me from the data, it knows the ASICs

00:13:14: Kai: community.

00:13:16: Dimitri Gielis: So it can welcome you, it can recognize you,

00:13:18: Dimitri Gielis: but it can also recognize your emotion.

00:13:21: Kai: Okay.

00:13:22: Dimitri Gielis: So this is one of the things that we want

00:13:24: Dimitri Gielis: to do, and it's more for myself, like I'm

00:13:27: Dimitri Gielis: really like trying everything on myself.

00:13:30: Dimitri Gielis: So if I enter the office and it would see

00:13:32: Dimitri Gielis: me and let's say I'm sad, then the the

00:13:36: Dimitri Gielis: house it's not doing this yet, but the

00:13:38: Dimitri Gielis: house should tell me like hey, do you see

00:13:40: Dimitri Gielis: that you're sad?

00:13:41: Dimitri Gielis: Do you want me to play you a song, for

00:13:43: Dimitri Gielis: example?

00:13:43: Kai: Great, or there's a beer in the fridge.

00:13:48: Dimitri Gielis: But drinking.

00:13:49: Dimitri Gielis: I don't know if that's good, but yeah, I

00:13:52: Dimitri Gielis: mean non-alcoholic maybe.

00:13:54: Kai: Yeah, we'll see Great, so you're also

00:13:56: Kai: passionate about that.

00:13:57: Kai: I'm very looking forward to record the next

00:13:59: Kai: Fs on Tape episode at your headquarters.

00:14:02: Kai: Yeah, yeah on tape episode at your

00:14:06: Kai: headquarters.

00:14:07: Kai: Yeah, yeah, you're very welcome, thank you.

00:14:08: Kai: Thank you, yeah, talking about the united

00:14:09: Kai: codes part, let's dive.

00:14:10: Kai: Let's dive into the company itself.

00:14:11: Kai: So you started like apex r&d.

00:14:14: Kai: Right, maybe a little step back, and this

00:14:16: Kai: was, yeah, the fundament for the aop

00:14:19: Kai: software.

00:14:20: Kai: Yeah, so maybe you can tell us about how

00:14:23: Kai: this idea evolves.

00:14:26: Dimitri Gielis: Thomas Wernerich.

00:14:26: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, so it was like Apex R&D, research and

00:14:28: Dimitri Gielis: development.

00:14:29: Dimitri Gielis: So we wanted to like Apex is really great,

00:14:32: Dimitri Gielis: but it had, or still has sometimes like

00:14:36: Dimitri Gielis: gaps of what it can do, and the Apex team

00:14:39: Dimitri Gielis: tries to fill all those gaps but it cannot

00:14:41: Dimitri Gielis: do everything at the same time.

00:14:43: Dimitri Gielis: So this is why we had like Apex R&D,

00:14:45: Dimitri Gielis: research and development look at the

00:14:47: Dimitri Gielis: different technologies and then build the

00:14:50: Dimitri Gielis: try to fill the gaps.

00:14:52: Dimitri Gielis: So whenever you build Apex applications,

00:14:54: Dimitri Gielis: you get a full solution of like what you're

00:14:58: Dimitri Gielis: trying to do.

00:14:58: Dimitri Gielis: So the like documents generation this was

00:15:04: Dimitri Gielis: harder.

00:15:05: Dimitri Gielis: Like had jasper reports.

00:15:07: Dimitri Gielis: At that time you had bi publisher.

00:15:08: Dimitri Gielis: I first specialized very much in bi

00:15:10: Dimitri Gielis: publisher and you got pure pdf like you had

00:15:13: Dimitri Gielis: different kinds but nothing was really like

00:15:15: Dimitri Gielis: how I thought it should be, like it wasn't

00:15:18: Dimitri Gielis: low code enough.

00:15:19: Dimitri Gielis: Like bi publisher was nice but it was like

00:15:23: Dimitri Gielis: very expensive and the word plugins like

00:15:25: Dimitri Gielis: you had to do different things.

00:15:27: Dimitri Gielis: It was rtf like it's there.

00:15:29: Dimitri Gielis: It has many flaws too.

00:15:31: Dimitri Gielis: All the other things.

00:15:32: Dimitri Gielis: You needed some new knowledge.

00:15:35: Dimitri Gielis: Like jasper reapers, you needed new

00:15:37: Dimitri Gielis: knowledge and so this is why we we said we

00:15:41: Dimitri Gielis: want to give the the people, the power to

00:15:43: Dimitri Gielis: build whatever they want and with the tools

00:15:45: Dimitri Gielis: that they know.

00:15:46: Dimitri Gielis: And we thought, like everybody knows Office,

00:15:49: Dimitri Gielis: so let's create like templates and then

00:15:51: Dimitri Gielis: let's try to merge that with the data.

00:15:53: Dimitri Gielis: And this is what we focused on.

00:15:55: Dimitri Gielis: And but we made it so integrated with Apex

00:15:58: Dimitri Gielis: that we became, I guess, number one.

00:16:02: Dimitri Gielis: Uh-huh, and definitely yeah.

00:16:04: Dimitri Gielis: So, like all those different cool

00:16:07: Dimitri Gielis: components interactive report, classic

00:16:09: Dimitri Gielis: report we built it so you can just use one

00:16:12: Dimitri Gielis: tag and then your report is there.

00:16:15: Dimitri Gielis: So no other technology has this and nobody

00:16:18: Dimitri Gielis: focused on it.

00:16:19: Dimitri Gielis: But we love Apex so much, so we said we

00:16:21: Dimitri Gielis: will do the full integration.

00:16:23: Dimitri Gielis: And yeah, but like this was 2015,.

00:16:27: Dimitri Gielis: It took three years to be profitable and

00:16:30: Dimitri Gielis: everybody said like well, why are you doing

00:16:32: Dimitri Gielis: this?

00:16:32: Dimitri Gielis: And like I believed in it and I said we

00:16:36: Dimitri Gielis: have to do it.

00:16:36: Dimitri Gielis: We proved it and like every year we got

00:16:39: Dimitri Gielis: more and more people and I know we are

00:16:42: Dimitri Gielis: market leader.

00:16:43: Kai: So that was my next.

00:16:44: Kai: Next, so you, you started apex r&d, and

00:16:48: Kai: this is something I mean.

00:16:50: Kai: Many companies do have an r&d section or

00:16:53: Kai: chapter, right, but this is the non-profit

00:16:56: Kai: part, because research and development

00:16:58: Kai: isn't something that is giving much revenue.

00:17:02: Kai: Right, and you're focusing with a complete

00:17:04: Kai: company, with the, with the thought that we

00:17:06: Kai: need to fill the gaps and find new

00:17:08: Kai: solutions for something that is missing

00:17:10: Kai: right now yeah, and, like we started with

00:17:12: Kai: aop, we had other ideas too, but you cannot

00:17:15: Kai: do everything at the same time and so we

00:17:18: Kai: had to.

00:17:19: Dimitri Gielis: We had to do consulting in order to fund

00:17:22: Dimitri Gielis: the r&D, but, very fast, I knew that you

00:17:28: Dimitri Gielis: shouldn't deal with product as like a next

00:17:32: Dimitri Gielis: to something, next to whenever we have

00:17:34: Dimitri Gielis: timing and we don't do consulting, we are

00:17:36: Dimitri Gielis: building the product.

00:17:37: Dimitri Gielis: You should never do that so very fast, like

00:17:41: Dimitri Gielis: in 2015, sunil.

00:17:42: Dimitri Gielis: I hired Sunil and, like he was dedicated on

00:17:45: Dimitri Gielis: the product, I was still doing like

00:17:47: Dimitri Gielis: consulting to fund, but got other people to

00:17:50: Dimitri Gielis: do the consulting, so we built a dedicated

00:17:53: Dimitri Gielis: team for the product.

00:17:54: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, and this is very different from like.

00:17:56: Dimitri Gielis: Initially, I tried different things too,

00:17:59: Dimitri Gielis: but if you don't really treat it as a real

00:18:01: Dimitri Gielis: thing and and like you put dedicated people

00:18:05: Dimitri Gielis: on it, then it's very hard to build a

00:18:07: Dimitri Gielis: product and to maintain it.

00:18:08: Dimitri Gielis: It's easy to build one-off thing, but to

00:18:11: Dimitri Gielis: keep going, that's hard.

00:18:13: Dimitri Gielis: And then you have to support.

00:18:14: Dimitri Gielis: You have the infrastructure.

00:18:15: Dimitri Gielis: There's so much coming into place, um, so

00:18:18: Dimitri Gielis: yeah, and aop definitely went through the

00:18:22: Dimitri Gielis: roof, right right.

00:18:23: Kai: So you had the right thought and the right

00:18:25: Kai: feeling to focus on AOP and bring it to the

00:18:28: Kai: mass, and it's a go-to solution.

00:18:30: Kai: So I'm in contact with many customers

00:18:33: Kai: around the world and AOP is, almost in each

00:18:36: Kai: and every case, the go-to solution for

00:18:38: Kai: printing.

00:18:39: Kai: So congratulations on that.

00:18:42: Kai: So my next question would be you already

00:18:45: Kai: said that Apex, or the Oracle Apex team, is

00:18:47: Kai: providing more and more features and

00:18:49: Kai: they're filling the gaps by themselves.

00:18:51: Kai: So what makes you so confident that AOP

00:18:54: Kai: will be staying the number one for

00:18:56: Kai: reporting things and not being substituted

00:18:59: Kai: by something Oracle is producing?

00:19:01: Dimitri Gielis: You have never a glass ball.

00:19:04: Dimitri Gielis: But what I've seen over time is that people

00:19:09: Dimitri Gielis: like to work with people and like with

00:19:12: Dimitri Gielis: passionate people and like I'm not saying

00:19:15: Dimitri Gielis: that oracle is doing bad things like and

00:19:18: Dimitri Gielis: and they put a lot of love into apex.

00:19:21: Dimitri Gielis: But like, if you have a dedicated company

00:19:24: Dimitri Gielis: putting all their energy and their like

00:19:27: Dimitri Gielis: love into a product and making it, we can

00:19:30: Dimitri Gielis: go much faster.

00:19:31: Dimitri Gielis: We are a smaller company, we can go much

00:19:33: Dimitri Gielis: faster than a bigger corporation.

00:19:36: Dimitri Gielis: And like, yeah, that's I, so am I afraid?

00:19:41: Dimitri Gielis: Like I hope that they will do something.

00:19:42: Dimitri Gielis: It will be good for the apex community and

00:19:46: Dimitri Gielis: but we are 10 years ahead so like they are

00:19:53: Dimitri Gielis: focusing a lot on the cloud.

00:19:55: Dimitri Gielis: We also have on-premise, so we don't really

00:19:59: Dimitri Gielis: see it yet as a competition Oracle

00:20:03: Dimitri Gielis: themselves.

00:20:04: Dimitri Gielis: They are using AOP too.

00:20:05: Dimitri Gielis: They, although they have, they had BI

00:20:07: Dimitri Gielis: Publisher too.

00:20:09: Dimitri Gielis: They have now some something else that they

00:20:11: Dimitri Gielis: built which is very similar to aop, but

00:20:14: Dimitri Gielis: they are still using us because, like, they

00:20:16: Dimitri Gielis: cannot replicate all the things that we did,

00:20:19: Dimitri Gielis: maybe over time, but some things are so

00:20:22: Dimitri Gielis: specific that, yeah, the way I see it is,

00:20:26: Dimitri Gielis: apex is always providing like, or they will

00:20:29: Dimitri Gielis: provide like, the 75 or 85, 85% of the

00:20:33: Dimitri Gielis: cases that everybody needs, but if you need

00:20:35: Dimitri Gielis: something specific, you would need to go

00:20:37: Dimitri Gielis: outside or you would need to use a plugin.

00:20:40: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, so yeah.

00:20:42: Kai: Did Oracle try to buy AOP at an early

00:20:45: Kai: instance?

00:20:45: Kai: Maybe, maybe.

00:20:48: Kai: Okay, talking about questions you might not

00:20:49: Kai: answer.

00:20:50: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, like there are NDAs in place, but I

00:20:53: Dimitri Gielis: guess it says enough, uh, so yeah, awesome.

00:20:57: Kai: Talking about customers, so will you unveil

00:21:00: Kai: how many customers are using AOP around the

00:21:02: Kai: world right now?

00:21:04: Dimitri Gielis: So it's actually, it's open on.

00:21:06: Dimitri Gielis: Whenever you go to our website you can

00:21:08: Dimitri Gielis: actually see how many users we have.

00:21:12: Dimitri Gielis: So I didn't check it lately, but it's over

00:21:14: Dimitri Gielis: 10,000.

00:21:15: Dimitri Gielis: Oh, okay, but like paying customers is like

00:21:19: Dimitri Gielis: 800 or something like paying, yeah, but we

00:21:23: Dimitri Gielis: have like a free version.

00:21:25: Dimitri Gielis: So it depends a bit like what you mean with

00:21:28: Dimitri Gielis: what you want to unveil.

00:21:29: Dimitri Gielis: Like I'm very open, a very open guy, so,

00:21:31: Dimitri Gielis: like instances, a very open guy so.

00:21:34: Kai: Like instances licenses sold licenses.

00:21:38: Dimitri Gielis: Oh, sold licenses.

00:21:41: Dimitri Gielis: I think it's more than thousands.

00:21:43: Kai: Oh, great, and they're all using AOP and

00:21:47: Kai: getting support from your team, right?

00:21:48: Kai: Yes, I'm just expecting that it's so much

00:21:52: Kai: questions asked for when there's so many

00:21:54: Kai: customers using AOP and you have a big team

00:21:57: Kai: behind that, right?

00:21:59: Kai: So?

00:21:59: Dimitri Gielis: how many people are working on that.

00:22:00: Dimitri Gielis: We have now six dedicated people and then

00:22:03: Dimitri Gielis: Jackie and me.

00:22:04: Dimitri Gielis: We are working but not a hundred percent on

00:22:06: Dimitri Gielis: AOP.

00:22:08: Dimitri Gielis: So, yeah, eight people in total are

00:22:11: Dimitri Gielis: dedicated, well, working on AOP.

00:22:12: Dimitri Gielis: But it's very funny Like, yeah, eight

00:22:13: Dimitri Gielis: people in total are dedicated, well,

00:22:13: Dimitri Gielis: working on on AOP.

00:22:14: Dimitri Gielis: But it's very funny Like, yeah, we can

00:22:16: Dimitri Gielis: support a thousand licenses or customers,

00:22:20: Dimitri Gielis: but it's actually like more than 10,000

00:22:22: Dimitri Gielis: people are using it, but some people they

00:22:26: Dimitri Gielis: don't really need any help, and some others

00:22:30: Dimitri Gielis: the first, like month, then they need help

00:22:34: Dimitri Gielis: and then after that they're good.

00:22:36: Dimitri Gielis: So you never know.

00:22:37: Dimitri Gielis: Like Harvard University is a heavy user of

00:22:40: Dimitri Gielis: AOP and in the beginning they needed a

00:22:43: Dimitri Gielis: little bit of help, but they were like very

00:22:46: Dimitri Gielis: early, like seven years ago, they became

00:22:47: Dimitri Gielis: customer, I think, and they, yeah, like,

00:22:51: Dimitri Gielis: and they, whenever they went to Kscope,

00:22:53: Dimitri Gielis: they told to others and then they used it.

00:22:56: Dimitri Gielis: And then sometimes you think, oh, this

00:22:58: Dimitri Gielis: company, like Oracle, you would expect they

00:23:00: Dimitri Gielis: don't need help, but they need a lot of

00:23:03: Dimitri Gielis: help, even over time.

00:23:05: Dimitri Gielis: Because in in Oracle, like, uh, you know

00:23:08: Dimitri Gielis: that they have the internal Apex instance,

00:23:10: Dimitri Gielis: sure, and like, many business units are

00:23:13: Dimitri Gielis: using this instance and so AOP is running

00:23:16: Dimitri Gielis: on that instance too.

00:23:18: Kai: And it's not all developers.

00:23:21: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, and they are not

00:23:22: Dimitri Gielis: talking to each other as well.

00:23:24: Dimitri Gielis: Like it's such a big corporation, I think

00:23:26: Dimitri Gielis: Oracle has like many different AOP licenses

00:23:29: Dimitri Gielis: because it's all different teams.

00:23:32: Dimitri Gielis: So yeah, like you never know, like

00:23:34: Dimitri Gielis: sometimes we don't do any support, we don't

00:23:37: Dimitri Gielis: need to give any support, but yeah, it's

00:23:40: Dimitri Gielis: Speaks for your product right.

00:23:41: Kai: So if you are selling a license, delivering

00:23:44: Kai: the software, they're installing it, asking

00:23:47: Kai: two or three questions and it's just

00:23:49: Kai: running.

00:23:49: Kai: It speaks for your product.

00:23:50: Dimitri Gielis: It's a very positive feedback then, but

00:23:53: Dimitri Gielis: it's learned from your own mistakes, right?

00:23:55: Dimitri Gielis: yeah after 10 years.

00:23:57: Dimitri Gielis: But still we made we we still make mistakes

00:23:59: Dimitri Gielis: and like but the impact is now high.

00:24:02: Dimitri Gielis: Like if you make a mistake, then it's high.

00:24:04: Dimitri Gielis: And as a company, what we try to do is like

00:24:07: Dimitri Gielis: automate as much as possible, but still

00:24:10: Dimitri Gielis: that's very hard and you know very well

00:24:13: Dimitri Gielis: about testing with your lct and like

00:24:16: Dimitri Gielis: testing aop.

00:24:17: Dimitri Gielis: Like if you build so many new features,

00:24:20: Dimitri Gielis: like that's we have test cases, test suites

00:24:23: Dimitri Gielis: and everything but like it's still very

00:24:26: Dimitri Gielis: hard.

00:24:26: Dimitri Gielis: And people I'm always amazed by how people

00:24:28: Dimitri Gielis: are using our product and like like

00:24:32: Dimitri Gielis: innovative ways that they are using it.

00:24:35: Dimitri Gielis: It's awesome to see, but yeah, it's.

00:24:38: Kai: It's quite a different angle.

00:24:39: Kai: They are looking at the product right.

00:24:41: Kai: So I saw that on different products too.

00:24:44: Kai: We saw that people are using it a complete

00:24:47: Kai: different way than it was intended to and

00:24:49: Kai: you say, oh okay, you thought this is for

00:24:52: Kai: that right.

00:24:53: Kai: And then you have to realign that.

00:24:55: Kai: All right, aop is evolving.

00:24:56: Kai: That's great.

00:24:57: Kai: What is the next big thing for AOP?

00:25:00: Kai: The next big thing for AOP Could be a

00:25:03: Kai: feature, could be some new type of license,

00:25:06: Kai: or is it some extension?

00:25:08: Kai: Or is it something that?

00:25:10: Kai: What is behind the curtain right now?

00:25:12: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, like so we are.

00:25:15: Dimitri Gielis: I don't know if you know, but like so.

00:25:17: Dimitri Gielis: There's Apex Office Print, but there's also

00:25:18: Dimitri Gielis: Cloud Office Print, and so Cloud Office

00:25:21: Dimitri Gielis: Print is the same as AOP, but we build SDKs

00:25:24: Dimitri Gielis: for other technologies, so Javanet, like

00:25:28: Dimitri Gielis: Python any technology can use AOP.

00:25:32: Dimitri Gielis: Basically, we see a lot of adoption in, for

00:25:35: Dimitri Gielis: example, our cloud, and what we want to do

00:25:42: Dimitri Gielis: is even make it easier for people to

00:25:44: Dimitri Gielis: maintain templates and their reporting

00:25:45: Dimitri Gielis: engine, if you want.

00:25:46: Dimitri Gielis: So there are two things that we will come

00:25:48: Dimitri Gielis: out with.

00:25:49: Dimitri Gielis: We call it AOP Design Studio, which allows

00:25:53: Dimitri Gielis: people to go just to like a, an apex app,

00:25:57: Dimitri Gielis: basically, and say, like those are my

00:25:59: Dimitri Gielis: templates, those are like which I want to

00:26:03: Dimitri Gielis: use, and and they can very easily change

00:26:05: Dimitri Gielis: them with like apex offset, as is behind

00:26:08: Dimitri Gielis: the scenes, of course.

00:26:09: Dimitri Gielis: So we build other things first and which we

00:26:11: Dimitri Gielis: all combine now in this design studio.

00:26:14: Dimitri Gielis: So this is something that will come and it

00:26:16: Dimitri Gielis: is important for AOP, but also for cloud

00:26:19: Dimitri Gielis: office print.

00:26:20: Dimitri Gielis: And then something called report builder.

00:26:23: Dimitri Gielis: Basically, like now, people, they put like

00:26:26: Dimitri Gielis: the reports, as a developer, you create a

00:26:29: Dimitri Gielis: SQL query and you say this is the template

00:26:33: Dimitri Gielis: or the SQL to get the template.

00:26:36: Dimitri Gielis: We want to do.

00:26:37: Dimitri Gielis: Make this even more flexible and like low

00:26:39: Dimitri Gielis: code, so that you don't have to deploy a

00:26:42: Dimitri Gielis: new version of your application whenever

00:26:44: Dimitri Gielis: you build a new report like a new button or

00:26:46: Dimitri Gielis: something.

00:26:47: Dimitri Gielis: So we, we built something called report

00:26:49: Dimitri Gielis: builder.

00:26:50: Dimitri Gielis: It has like an administrative page where

00:26:52: Dimitri Gielis: you can enter, like where's your data,

00:26:55: Dimitri Gielis: where's the templates that you want to use,

00:26:57: Dimitri Gielis: if it's multilingual, yes or no, and then

00:27:00: Dimitri Gielis: it's a little plugin.

00:27:01: Dimitri Gielis: You just put a plugin on your apex page and

00:27:04: Dimitri Gielis: it basically shows all the reports that you

00:27:06: Dimitri Gielis: have available.

00:27:08: Dimitri Gielis: So if you want to publish a new report, you

00:27:10: Dimitri Gielis: go to your administrative interface, you

00:27:13: Dimitri Gielis: say, okay, this is the data that I want,

00:27:14: Dimitri Gielis: this is the template, and then the end user

00:27:17: Dimitri Gielis: has a new report.

00:27:18: Dimitri Gielis: Like some customers maybe you already, your

00:27:21: Dimitri Gielis: company already built that too, like we

00:27:23: Dimitri Gielis: have seen like many customers doing this

00:27:25: Dimitri Gielis: kind of thing.

00:27:27: Dimitri Gielis: So those are two things that we have been

00:27:29: Dimitri Gielis: working on that will come out shortly.

00:27:33: Dimitri Gielis: Ai is something else that we are looking

00:27:35: Dimitri Gielis: into.

00:27:35: Kai: That was my next question.

00:27:37: Kai: So is there any planned feature with AI in

00:27:40: Kai: AOP?

00:27:41: Kai: So if I just think outside the box and say

00:27:45: Kai: I don't want to create this template in

00:27:47: Kai: Office by myself, I want to just tell the

00:27:50: Kai: AI please create me some kind of invoice.

00:27:53: Kai: I want this information on that.

00:27:55: Kai: This should be special on this template and

00:27:58: Kai: please create it, and the AI knows the

00:28:01: Kai: syntax of your engine or what it needs to

00:28:06: Kai: have in the template and creates a complete

00:28:08: Kai: report for you.

00:28:10: Dimitri Gielis: So I gave actually this demo, I think two

00:28:12: Dimitri Gielis: years ago or last year at Kscope and like

00:28:17: Dimitri Gielis: what is Open Mic Night?

00:28:19: Dimitri Gielis: I think we showed that two years ago, I

00:28:21: Dimitri Gielis: think.

00:28:21: Dimitri Gielis: So we had been working on this, like you

00:28:24: Dimitri Gielis: just give a prompt and it's just doing

00:28:27: Dimitri Gielis: exactly what you just said.

00:28:30: Dimitri Gielis: But when you look at Office itself, like

00:28:32: Dimitri Gielis: it's very powerful in like creating look

00:28:35: Dimitri Gielis: and feels and and like using ai to to to

00:28:39: Dimitri Gielis: come up with those templates.

00:28:40: Dimitri Gielis: So we didn't push this forward yet, but

00:28:44: Dimitri Gielis: it's something we have already played with

00:28:47: Dimitri Gielis: and it's working very well.

00:28:50: Dimitri Gielis: It's just the look and feel that we have to.

00:28:53: Dimitri Gielis: We didn't find a good solution on the look

00:28:55: Dimitri Gielis: and feel, so we need to combine a few

00:28:57: Dimitri Gielis: things still.

00:28:58: Kai: I mean, maybe there's a solution with

00:29:00: Kai: Copilot, right?

00:29:00: Kai: So if you're using Cuhir or ChatGPT or

00:29:04: Kai: something like that, it should not be the

00:29:06: Kai: same as when you're using Copilot, because

00:29:08: Kai: Copilot should be able to create stunning

00:29:12: Kai: templates that are not only practical or

00:29:17: Kai: syntax correct in the term of the file.

00:29:22: Kai: I think that should be a great extension,

00:29:24: Kai: because if you save time on that too, that

00:29:26: Kai: would be a game changer, right?

00:29:27: Kai: Yeah, all right.

00:29:31: Kai: So how do you handle new features from

00:29:34: Kai: Oracle Apex?

00:29:35: Kai: So you are providing new updates for AOP on

00:29:39: Kai: a regular base, right?

00:29:40: Kai: Just bug fixes, new features and so on.

00:29:42: Kai: But if there's a new version of Apex, maybe

00:29:44: Kai: presented at a conference with the roadmap

00:29:48: Kai: for the new features, how much time does it

00:29:50: Kai: take you to adopt your AOP to the next

00:29:54: Kai: version and new features, new report engine

00:29:56: Kai: or new components?

00:29:59: Kai: It always depends.

00:30:01: Kai: The best answer a developer could say it

00:30:03: Kai: always depends.

00:30:04: Dimitri Gielis: But so over time what happened?

00:30:09: Dimitri Gielis: Like if you look at how apex came out

00:30:12: Dimitri Gielis: before, like they upgraded apexoraclecom so

00:30:15: Dimitri Gielis: then we could test aop and like, yeah, see,

00:30:19: Dimitri Gielis: see different things.

00:30:22: Dimitri Gielis: But it actually shifted a bit because

00:30:25: Dimitri Gielis: before they upgrade apexoraclecom they're

00:30:28: Dimitri Gielis: upgrading their internal Apexoraclecorpcom,

00:30:32: Dimitri Gielis: so we get if something changed in Apex,

00:30:37: Dimitri Gielis: then we already are notified by Oracle

00:30:38: Dimitri Gielis: themselves because they use AOP.

00:30:40: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, so then if something breaks so this

00:30:43: Dimitri Gielis: like the bugs, this is actually done.

00:30:45: Dimitri Gielis: While they are developing Apex, the new

00:30:48: Dimitri Gielis: version of Apex, we get notified.

00:30:51: Dimitri Gielis: So with the new components it's sometimes

00:30:54: Dimitri Gielis: like before it was easier.

00:30:56: Dimitri Gielis: Now they're trying to keep things more

00:30:58: Dimitri Gielis: closed and don't really specify what new

00:31:01: Dimitri Gielis: things are coming.

00:31:03: Dimitri Gielis: But like we are one of the companies, we

00:31:07: Dimitri Gielis: have direct access to the development team.

00:31:09: Dimitri Gielis: We discuss upfront, like what they are

00:31:13: Dimitri Gielis: doing, what we are going to do.

00:31:15: Dimitri Gielis: There's also this beta program like so

00:31:19: Dimitri Gielis: there are not many companies who are doing

00:31:21: Dimitri Gielis: that, but we cannot talk about it exactly

00:31:25: Dimitri Gielis: that was something I would uh step in for

00:31:28: Dimitri Gielis: yeah so we cannot talk about that.

00:31:30: Dimitri Gielis: So we we know actually in advance and like

00:31:34: Dimitri Gielis: if they, if we missed it, like one one

00:31:37: Dimitri Gielis: release, like I think it was 24.1, where

00:31:40: Dimitri Gielis: they wanted to keep everything secret and

00:31:42: Dimitri Gielis: come out with a big blast I think this was

00:31:44: Dimitri Gielis: 24.1, so we didn't get the access done and

00:31:49: Dimitri Gielis: they needed the first patch to fix

00:31:51: Dimitri Gielis: something on their end.

00:31:53: Dimitri Gielis: Okay, or we had to do like a patch on our.

00:31:56: Dimitri Gielis: That happens sometimes too.

00:31:58: Dimitri Gielis: If we miss something we have to do a patch.

00:32:00: Dimitri Gielis: But so we are doing two major releases a

00:32:02: Dimitri Gielis: year for AOP, which is unrelated of the

00:32:05: Dimitri Gielis: Apex cycle, and we have more regular patch

00:32:10: Dimitri Gielis: updates.

00:32:11: Dimitri Gielis: But people don't have to take that on.

00:32:13: Dimitri Gielis: But if Apex is coming out with like one

00:32:17: Dimitri Gielis: thing was like they changed the way they

00:32:19: Dimitri Gielis: are doing attributes and before it was

00:32:22: Dimitri Gielis: limited to 25 attributes.

00:32:24: Dimitri Gielis: As plugin develops we always had this issue

00:32:26: Dimitri Gielis: or 20 or 25, and then they made unlimited

00:32:29: Dimitri Gielis: attributes.

00:32:30: Dimitri Gielis: But behind the scenes they are storing JSON

00:32:32: Dimitri Gielis: and we are heavily using metadata.

00:32:35: Dimitri Gielis: So yeah, we had to adapt that.

00:32:38: Dimitri Gielis: Or like.

00:32:39: Dimitri Gielis: Another example is they deprecate sometimes

00:32:41: Dimitri Gielis: features.

00:32:42: Dimitri Gielis: But AOPs works from Apex 19.2 up to like

00:32:47: Dimitri Gielis: the latest and greatest Apex and we have a

00:32:50: Dimitri Gielis: lot of conditional compilation.

00:32:52: Dimitri Gielis: But sometimes they take something away

00:32:55: Dimitri Gielis: which you think that people don't use and

00:32:57: Dimitri Gielis: they don't put it in the documentation that

00:32:59: Dimitri Gielis: they removed something.

00:33:01: Dimitri Gielis: So then, like our code broke, like they

00:33:04: Dimitri Gielis: removed two columns in a view in an Apex

00:33:07: Dimitri Gielis: Metadata view which was public.

00:33:10: Dimitri Gielis: So then, like, either we had to change it

00:33:13: Dimitri Gielis: or what they did is they fixed in their

00:33:16: Dimitri Gielis: patch set.

00:33:16: Dimitri Gielis: They fixed that the columns would still be

00:33:18: Dimitri Gielis: there, but nullable, okay, and then they

00:33:21: Dimitri Gielis: said, like on the next version they would

00:33:22: Dimitri Gielis: take it off.

00:33:23: Kai: So we had time to change the code do you

00:33:26: Kai: have some, some automated watchtowers for,

00:33:30: Kai: like some automatic test sets that are

00:33:32: Kai: running when a new version comes out, or is

00:33:35: Kai: it still manually going through each and

00:33:37: Kai: every?

00:33:38: Dimitri Gielis: thing.

00:33:38: Dimitri Gielis: Everything is like all the like we have

00:33:41: Dimitri Gielis: over a thousand tests which are automated,

00:33:45: Dimitri Gielis: yeah, like.

00:33:46: Dimitri Gielis: But yeah, from the Apex side like those

00:33:48: Dimitri Gielis: kinds of things is sometimes hard to do you

00:33:51: Dimitri Gielis: have the test case for that, exactly

00:33:53: Dimitri Gielis: Because we have, like many is for the aop

00:33:55: Dimitri Gielis: features test.

00:33:57: Dimitri Gielis: And then like classic report, interactive

00:33:58: Dimitri Gielis: report, like those kind of things, and we

00:34:01: Dimitri Gielis: we changed over time before, like we were

00:34:03: Dimitri Gielis: just comparing the output, like if is the

00:34:07: Dimitri Gielis: number of kilobytes that the output is, is

00:34:09: Dimitri Gielis: it the same as before?

00:34:11: Dimitri Gielis: But then, like if Office changes, like this

00:34:14: Dimitri Gielis: changes too, so you have to update.

00:34:16: Dimitri Gielis: And now we are basically comparing images.

00:34:21: Dimitri Gielis: So we generate the document, we take an

00:34:26: Dimitri Gielis: image of it, we comparing the image if

00:34:28: Dimitri Gielis: there's like something different, and then,

00:34:31: Dimitri Gielis: yeah, this is how the team is doing it now,

00:34:33: Dimitri Gielis: like I'm not involved in the tech it's

00:34:37: Dimitri Gielis: always, always great if the team is behind

00:34:39: Dimitri Gielis: that great.

00:34:41: Kai: So we we already talked about new features

00:34:43: Kai: that oracle is providing to, to apex.

00:34:45: Kai: That might be some competition.

00:34:48: Kai: So there's oci printing.

00:34:50: Kai: This is I.

00:34:50: Kai: I think that's an interesting question,

00:34:52: Kai: because we did the same question for Chris

00:34:55: Kai: Rice, who is, if you call it competition,

00:34:58: Kai: it's the opponent right.

00:35:00: Kai: So they were implementing something very,

00:35:02: Kai: very similar to your service and to what

00:35:05: Kai: you are providing, and my question on that

00:35:08: Kai: is so you already said that you're not

00:35:11: Kai: frightened about what's happening on this

00:35:13: Kai: front because they are not that quick or

00:35:17: Kai: you're like 10 years ahead.

00:35:19: Kai: I think oci printing was pretty close to to

00:35:22: Kai: what what you can achieve in the base usage

00:35:25: Kai: of aop.

00:35:26: Kai: So what happened there?

00:35:27: Kai: That they just came out of the dark and

00:35:29: Kai: said, okay, you can use o, use OCI printing

00:35:31: Kai: instead of AOP.

00:35:32: Kai: So that should be a very, very heavy news

00:35:35: Kai: for you, right?

00:35:36: Dimitri Gielis: Well, we knew that this was coming.

00:35:40: Dimitri Gielis: Like what was Chris Rice's answer?

00:35:44: Dimitri Gielis: I didn't listen to the.

00:35:46: Dimitri Gielis: It was on Defile on tape, but I didn't hear

00:35:48: Dimitri Gielis: that.

00:35:49: Dimitri Gielis: So what did he say?

00:35:51: Kai: You have to listen to this episode because

00:35:54: Kai: I'm not that sure still if I can repeat it

00:35:57: Kai: correctly.

00:35:58: Kai: And if I don't repeat it correctly then

00:36:00: Kai: it's a problem.

00:36:02: Dimitri Gielis: Tell me just your side of the story.

00:36:04: Dimitri Gielis: So my side of the story is that they looked

00:36:08: Dimitri Gielis: very closely to what AOP is doing, looked

00:36:11: Dimitri Gielis: very closely to what AOP is doing and from

00:36:19: Dimitri Gielis: their point of view like we had talks

00:36:20: Dimitri Gielis: before about that like they find it

00:36:21: Dimitri Gielis: important to be compatible with AOP because

00:36:22: Dimitri Gielis: they are such a heavy AOP user and for the

00:36:25: Dimitri Gielis: simple things like they can use OCI, they

00:36:29: Dimitri Gielis: needed something for Gartner as well to

00:36:32: Dimitri Gielis: tick off the box that they have some

00:36:33: Dimitri Gielis: printing.

00:36:34: Dimitri Gielis: And, yeah, they needed also something

00:36:37: Dimitri Gielis: outside of Apex.

00:36:38: Dimitri Gielis: So this is why it's like an OCI service but

00:36:41: Dimitri Gielis: they don't do on-prem.

00:36:42: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, they also don't have the plans to go

00:36:45: Dimitri Gielis: with all the feature set that we have.

00:36:48: Dimitri Gielis: But like so many customers ask like not

00:36:52: Dimitri Gielis: many customers it's consulting companies

00:36:54: Dimitri Gielis: like yours and like previous Insomniac with

00:36:57: Dimitri Gielis: Talen Like they ask like how do you deal

00:37:00: Dimitri Gielis: with that?

00:37:01: Dimitri Gielis: What do we have to tell customers?

00:37:02: Dimitri Gielis: So we made a decision tree like if you want

00:37:05: Dimitri Gielis: to use Excel or this feature, like okay,

00:37:09: Dimitri Gielis: then use AOP.

00:37:10: Dimitri Gielis: And then like basically it's a whole tree

00:37:12: Dimitri Gielis: and it's always aop is the answer.

00:37:14: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, until very bottom.

00:37:16: Dimitri Gielis: And there you have a choice and then you

00:37:19: Dimitri Gielis: can still you can use the copycat or you

00:37:21: Dimitri Gielis: can use the original one, so like yeah,

00:37:24: Dimitri Gielis: they're, they are doing good, because it's

00:37:26: Dimitri Gielis: very similar, if not identical, to us.

00:37:30: Dimitri Gielis: Uh, but it's a very different, like it's a

00:37:32: Dimitri Gielis: function and like it's a very different

00:37:35: Dimitri Gielis: approach.

00:37:37: Kai: So no hard feelings in this case.

00:37:40: Dimitri Gielis: If I well, if I'm honest but I have to be

00:37:42: Dimitri Gielis: careful what I'm saying Initially it was

00:37:45: Dimitri Gielis: like, why are you doing this?

00:37:49: Dimitri Gielis: But now, like okay, it's what it is, and

00:37:53: Dimitri Gielis: I'm an Oracle Acer R ace director too.

00:37:55: Dimitri Gielis: I have a lot of I'm very thankful for the

00:37:57: Dimitri Gielis: apex team too, like my kid, juan joel.

00:38:00: Dimitri Gielis: Like when I first started with apex I think

00:38:03: Dimitri Gielis: it was in 2006 we did the first apex meetup

00:38:06: Dimitri Gielis: the day.

00:38:07: Dimitri Gielis: Like we were like what is it?

00:38:09: Dimitri Gielis: Nine people.

00:38:10: Dimitri Gielis: When you go to my blog, you see the first

00:38:10: Dimitri Gielis: apex meetup Nine people.

00:38:11: Dimitri Gielis: When you go to my blog, you see the first

00:38:12: Dimitri Gielis: Apex meetup Nine people.

00:38:13: Dimitri Gielis: They brought me back to my hotel, so, and

00:38:16: Dimitri Gielis: so I know them for a very long time and

00:38:18: Dimitri Gielis: they are more than just like communities,

00:38:22: Dimitri Gielis: like friends yeah, friends and like I have

00:38:26: Dimitri Gielis: a lot of of things to thank Apex and Oracle

00:38:29: Dimitri Gielis: for.

00:38:30: Dimitri Gielis: So I will never say something bad and I

00:38:32: Dimitri Gielis: don't want to have like bad feelings about

00:38:35: Dimitri Gielis: this.

00:38:36: Dimitri Gielis: So, yeah, this is like my, of course.

00:38:39: Dimitri Gielis: Like when you first see it come on like

00:38:43: Dimitri Gielis: Sure, but now, like I'm fine with

00:38:45: Dimitri Gielis: everything and so far we don't see any

00:38:48: Dimitri Gielis: impact for us, and even Oracle is still a

00:38:50: Dimitri Gielis: customer with us.

00:38:53: Kai: So they cannot even use their own product

00:38:56: Kai: to replace what they.

00:38:57: Dimitri Gielis: You shouldn't say that you shouldn't,

00:38:58: Dimitri Gielis: because I remember Larry Ellison bashing

00:39:01: Dimitri Gielis: Amazon that they were still using Oracle

00:39:03: Dimitri Gielis: and then Amazon, they really threw them out.

00:39:05: Dimitri Gielis: So you shouldn't do that.

00:39:08: Dimitri Gielis: I don't want to do that, but I think AOP

00:39:11: Dimitri Gielis: will have features that they will never

00:39:13: Dimitri Gielis: have, like printing to a local printer, for

00:39:16: Dimitri Gielis: example.

00:39:17: Dimitri Gielis: How will you do this from OCI Sure?

00:39:20: Dimitri Gielis: So there are certain things that will be

00:39:23: Dimitri Gielis: very hard to just do in the way they

00:39:27: Dimitri Gielis: implemented it.

00:39:29: Kai: So great, heavy last piece of this podcast

00:39:31: Kai: before we go into our categories.

00:39:33: Kai: Thank you for your open answer to that.

00:39:35: Kai: So I'm very happy to see that there are no

00:39:37: Kai: hard or bad feelings around and I think I

00:39:41: Kai: can say that the answer of Chris Rice is

00:39:44: Kai: not that bad too.

00:39:45: Kai: So I think they have clear intentions and

00:39:48: Kai: they wanted to go the best way to do it and

00:39:52: Kai: obviously AOP way is the best way to do it

00:39:53: Kai: and obviously aop way is the best way to do

00:39:55: Kai: it they go firm, basically like if you copy

00:39:58: Kai: to the like the same tags and everything.

00:40:01: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, you also, you show that we have done

00:40:04: Dimitri Gielis: a great job exactly and that's the way to

00:40:06: Dimitri Gielis: see it, and there, that's the right thing.

00:40:09: Kai: Great.

00:40:10: Kai: So yeah, let's go to our categories.

00:40:12: Kai: So we have three different categories

00:40:14: Kai: hypothetically, in private and consumption.

00:40:16: Kai: We start with hypothetically, if you can,

00:40:19: Kai: could undo one technological trend in the

00:40:22: Kai: recent years.

00:40:23: Kai: What would it be?

00:40:24: Kai: It could be.

00:40:26: Kai: Usually we give some examples to bring.

00:40:28: Kai: Like it shouldn't.

00:40:29: Kai: It doesn't have to be something in apex or

00:40:31: Kai: oracle, it could be smartphones, it could

00:40:33: Kai: be electrical cars or whatever, but what

00:40:36: Kai: would you undo?

00:40:38: Dimitri Gielis: if you could.

00:40:39: Dimitri Gielis: It's very hard because I love technology,

00:40:45: Dimitri Gielis: so I cannot really think of something I

00:40:47: Dimitri Gielis: would undo.

00:40:47: Dimitri Gielis: I think every new technology brings in

00:40:51: Dimitri Gielis: risks or like, for example, the phone.

00:40:52: Dimitri Gielis: Like, for example, the phone.

00:40:54: Dimitri Gielis: Like my daughter is on the phone all the

00:40:56: Dimitri Gielis: time and like I don't like why like go

00:41:01: Dimitri Gielis: outside.

00:41:02: Dimitri Gielis: So although the phone is great and like it

00:41:05: Dimitri Gielis: has so many like being on or connected all

00:41:09: Dimitri Gielis: the time, I think it's not great.

00:41:12: Dimitri Gielis: So do I want to take away the phone?

00:41:13: Dimitri Gielis: no, yeah okay, the same with with ai, like

00:41:18: Dimitri Gielis: in a way, like you will be able to produce

00:41:21: Dimitri Gielis: shit faster.

00:41:22: Dimitri Gielis: Maybe I shouldn't use that word, but no,

00:41:24: Dimitri Gielis: it's good.

00:41:25: Dimitri Gielis: No, but should you?

00:41:27: Dimitri Gielis: You remove ai?

00:41:29: Dimitri Gielis: No, it's great.

00:41:30: Dimitri Gielis: So which?

00:41:32: Dimitri Gielis: Which technology should go away?

00:41:34: Dimitri Gielis: I'm not really sure.

00:41:35: Dimitri Gielis: I cannot really think about something now.

00:41:38: Kai: Okay.

00:41:38: Kai: So if there's something coming up, you can

00:41:40: Kai: just throw it in afterwards, or we put it

00:41:42: Kai: in the show notes.

00:41:43: Kai: Let's go over to the next question.

00:41:45: Kai: So the direct opposite what would you like

00:41:48: Kai: to invent or create in the technology

00:41:51: Kai: sector?

00:41:53: Kai: So, long-term goal is what you told us in

00:41:55: Kai: the introduction of the podcast, right?

00:41:56: Kai: So you want to?

00:41:58: Dimitri Gielis: let go to Mars.

00:42:00: Dimitri Gielis: So this would be like my what I want to do,

00:42:05: Dimitri Gielis: what I think is important to do, and to do

00:42:07: Dimitri Gielis: it well.

00:42:09: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, like, what I really like is what they

00:42:11: Dimitri Gielis: do with neural link, like be able to give

00:42:15: Dimitri Gielis: people back certain capabilities, so I

00:42:19: Dimitri Gielis: really like that.

00:42:20: Dimitri Gielis: Like I used to be involved in

00:42:23: Dimitri Gielis: ergotherapeutics we built a platform in

00:42:26: Dimitri Gielis: apex to help the ergo ergotherapist.

00:42:28: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, and they're like somebody wants to

00:42:31: Dimitri Gielis: play guitar again.

00:42:32: Dimitri Gielis: It's like stupid thing.

00:42:34: Dimitri Gielis: They got an accident.

00:42:35: Dimitri Gielis: They were able to play it before.

00:42:36: Dimitri Gielis: They cannot play it anymore.

00:42:38: Dimitri Gielis: Like you can help them with like all the

00:42:40: Dimitri Gielis: different things.

00:42:41: Dimitri Gielis: But like if you could give them a chip, or

00:42:44: Dimitri Gielis: just a chip to do translations, for example,

00:42:47: Dimitri Gielis: I would love that.

00:42:48: Dimitri Gielis: Like that I can use a chip and then

00:42:51: Dimitri Gielis: suddenly I can speak german.

00:42:53: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, I understand a bit of german.

00:42:55: Dimitri Gielis: I go to like uh, for one year, two hours a

00:42:59: Dimitri Gielis: week in german, but I'm not good enough in

00:43:02: Dimitri Gielis: it anymore or I haven't been ever good in

00:43:05: Dimitri Gielis: it.

00:43:05: Dimitri Gielis: So this would be really cool if you could

00:43:08: Dimitri Gielis: enable that.

00:43:09: Dimitri Gielis: Just say like, okay, now I can speak

00:43:12: Dimitri Gielis: Chinese, great, then it's a way to connect

00:43:16: Dimitri Gielis: to people, but in real life, wow.

00:43:19: Kai: It's a nice angle to see what Neuralink is

00:43:22: Kai: doing there, but it's already invented,

00:43:24: Kai: right, it's already created, so maybe okay,

00:43:27: Kai: it's not accessible yet for people.

00:43:29: Dimitri Gielis: I think Maybe it is in Africa and I didn't

00:43:32: Dimitri Gielis: see it.

00:43:32: Kai: As soon as this chip is running in an

00:43:34: Kai: Oracle Apex instance, then you will be on

00:43:36: Kai: board.

00:43:36: Kai: All right, great.

00:43:39: Kai: Next category is in private.

00:43:40: Kai: Are you satisfied with your work-life

00:43:41: Kai: balance?

00:43:43: Dimitri Gielis: That's again like it's a hard question.

00:43:45: Dimitri Gielis: Like the way that people look at me, they

00:43:48: Dimitri Gielis: will probably say, like I work way too hard,

00:43:51: Dimitri Gielis: I see it a bit different, so work me.

00:43:55: Dimitri Gielis: They will probably say, like I work way too

00:43:56: Dimitri Gielis: hard, I see it a bit different.

00:43:57: Dimitri Gielis: So work, life balance.

00:43:57: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, like, initially I told, like

00:43:58: Dimitri Gielis: everybody, like, oh, I worked like maybe 80

00:44:01: Dimitri Gielis: hours a week and this is way is not healthy.

00:44:04: Dimitri Gielis: But for me it's not work, it's like it's

00:44:06: Dimitri Gielis: passion, it's like it is my life in a way,

00:44:09: Dimitri Gielis: and it's not it's work.

00:44:11: Dimitri Gielis: It's things that I love to do, it's like

00:44:14: Dimitri Gielis: connections that I have with people.

00:44:17: Dimitri Gielis: So, is it bad?

00:44:19: Dimitri Gielis: For some people when they look at me, it's

00:44:21: Dimitri Gielis: probably bad, but, like, for me it's not

00:44:24: Dimitri Gielis: For your private environment.

00:44:25: Kai: it's not a problem, right it's?

00:44:28: Kai: Yeah.

00:44:29: Dimitri Gielis: Always finding the balance right.

00:44:31: Dimitri Gielis: Yeah, you have to find balance.

00:44:34: Kai: Okay, so what role does your private

00:44:36: Kai: environment play in your job is kind of

00:44:39: Kai: answered already.

00:44:40: Kai: But are you surrounded by like geeks like

00:44:43: Kai: the same, or is it the very opposite of

00:44:46: Kai: that?

00:44:56: Dimitri Gielis: in many hours of the day, like when you

00:44:57: Dimitri Gielis: look at united coast family, we are all

00:44:58: Dimitri Gielis: like very high technology savvy people.

00:44:59: Dimitri Gielis: Like I love to surround myself with people

00:45:02: Dimitri Gielis: who are smarter than me, so this is like

00:45:05: Dimitri Gielis: definitely great, but I also play soccer

00:45:09: Dimitri Gielis: and they're like.

00:45:11: Dimitri Gielis: So it's it's different people and, yeah, I

00:45:15: Dimitri Gielis: try to do different things.

00:45:17: Dimitri Gielis: So I I love like having all the savvy

00:45:21: Dimitri Gielis: people, but I also love having like playing

00:45:24: Dimitri Gielis: padel, playing soccer, like all the

00:45:26: Dimitri Gielis: different ways that people do their lives

00:45:29: Dimitri Gielis: and I find everybody actually interesting.

00:45:32: Kai: So great answer.

00:45:35: Kai: So like shutting your head off for a little

00:45:38: Kai: bit of time during soccer is the best way

00:45:41: Kai: to relax, right?

00:45:43: Dimitri Gielis: So if you're just surrounded by people,

00:45:44: Dimitri Gielis: talking about tech, you cannot relax

00:45:47: Dimitri Gielis: yourself.

00:45:47: Kai: Yeah, exactly, very good.

00:45:49: Dimitri Gielis: In football, we don't talk about tech.

00:45:51: Kai: Yeah, I hope so, all right.

00:45:54: Kai: So last category is consumption.

00:45:56: Kai: How do you consume your news or new

00:45:59: Kai: knowledge?

00:45:59: Kai: So usually like Twitter or X, books,

00:46:03: Kai: magazines, newsletters.

00:46:04: Kai: What is your source of knowledge?

00:46:06: Dimitri Gielis: So I don't really watch a lot of TV or news

00:46:10: Dimitri Gielis: like from Russia or like this kind of news.

00:46:13: Dimitri Gielis: What is happening in the world.

00:46:14: Dimitri Gielis: So, like people are find me strange because

00:46:17: Dimitri Gielis: I don't know all the different things.

00:46:19: Dimitri Gielis: So I always think, like if it is really

00:46:21: Dimitri Gielis: important, I will have people will have to

00:46:24: Dimitri Gielis: tell me, because they talk about like

00:46:27: Dimitri Gielis: Ukraine, they talk about like all the

00:46:28: Dimitri Gielis: different things.

00:46:29: Dimitri Gielis: So, from a technology point of view, I

00:46:32: Dimitri Gielis: follow like what is happening on X.

00:46:35: Dimitri Gielis: This is where I am on a little bit.

00:46:38: Dimitri Gielis: I have a few sites like Mac Rumors, apex

00:46:41: Dimitri Gielis: World, like Tesla Rati, like I like that,

00:46:45: Dimitri Gielis: like.

00:46:46: Dimitri Gielis: So I follow a few sites where I have my

00:46:49: Dimitri Gielis: information.

00:46:50: Dimitri Gielis: And then I love like talking to like

00:46:54: Dimitri Gielis: customers or or like the people in our

00:46:57: Dimitri Gielis: company.

00:46:58: Dimitri Gielis: They always, yeah, they follow so many

00:47:01: Dimitri Gielis: different things and, yeah, it's, it's very

00:47:04: Dimitri Gielis: great to just talk to them and get

00:47:07: Dimitri Gielis: everything condensed right.

00:47:08: Dimitri Gielis: Just get the news news like just, and like

00:47:11: Dimitri Gielis: the conference, for example, too, like when

00:47:14: Dimitri Gielis: you go here, and it's not really about the

00:47:16: Dimitri Gielis: sessions, for me, it's more about the

00:47:18: Dimitri Gielis: connection to the people and I learn more

00:47:21: Dimitri Gielis: from just having a coffee with somebody and

00:47:24: Dimitri Gielis: when we're just talking and they are

00:47:26: Dimitri Gielis: talking like about what they are doing with

00:47:28: Dimitri Gielis: it, and this is for me personally this is

00:47:33: Dimitri Gielis: even more interesting than just seeing a

00:47:35: Dimitri Gielis: session.

00:47:35: Dimitri Gielis: Like, I don't really go to so many sessions

00:47:39: Dimitri Gielis: anymore, but I love talking like just with

00:47:42: Dimitri Gielis: a coffee.

00:47:43: Dimitri Gielis: Great.

00:47:44: Kai: Awesome, awesome.

00:47:45: Kai: Last words, dimitri, thank you very much

00:47:48: Kai: for joining me on Desk on Tape.

00:47:50: Kai: I love talking to you and get some insights

00:47:52: Kai: from AOP and your company and your very

00:47:55: Kai: ambitious plan to go on Mars.

00:47:57: Kai: I will enjoy your talk.

00:47:59: Kai: I guess I will come into the session

00:48:01: Kai: tomorrow at 11, I guess and see some

00:48:04: Kai: pictures of your new United Coats

00:48:06: Kai: headquarters.

00:48:07: Kai: Thank you very much for joining me.

00:48:08: Kai: Have a great conference and, yeah, maybe

00:48:11: Kai: we'll see each other in the following days.

00:48:13: Kai: Okay, bye.