[English] Devs On Tape x Kscope23 - Our Guest: ODTUG Board Member Roel Hartman

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Devs on Tape.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Today I have a very interesting guest again

00:00:00: Speaker 1: from Kscope and Aurora, next to Denver in

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Colorado.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So in the vast realm of Oracle Technologies,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: a true luminary emerges, a seasoned

00:00:00: Speaker 1: professional with an extraordinary journey.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Starting with Oracle RDBMS5 in the distant

00:00:00: Speaker 1: past, the visionary has owned the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: experience in crafting remarkable

00:00:00: Speaker 1: applications for end users For over 15

00:00:00: Speaker 1: years he is.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: His unwavering focus has centered on Oracle

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Application Express, shortly Apex,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: transforming the landscape of software

00:00:00: Speaker 1: development With an ODTARC.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: His dedication knows no bounds, as he

00:00:00: Speaker 1: esteemed Apex content lead for Kscope 14

00:00:00: Speaker 1: and 5F15, he sculpted unforgettable

00:00:00: Speaker 1: experiences for attendees, ensuring they

00:00:00: Speaker 1: delved into the depths of Apex.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Presently he stands as a revered member of

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the board of directors, steering the Oracle

00:00:00: Speaker 1: community towards new horizons.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: His contributions has not gone unnoticed,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: earning him a constellation of accolades.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: In June 2009 he became an Oracle Ace for

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the first time, a testament for his

00:00:00: Speaker 1: exceptional expertise.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: By August 2010 his accent continued and he

00:00:00: Speaker 1: ascended I never do that in the first try.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Right as he ascended to the esteemed rank

00:00:00: Speaker 1: of an Oracle Ace director In June 2019 he

00:00:00: Speaker 1: was anointed to Oracle Groundbreaker

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Ambassador, further solidifying his

00:00:00: Speaker 1: influential role in the Oracle reel.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But his influence extends beyond individual

00:00:00: Speaker 1: achievements.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: A master of the written word, he has

00:00:00: Speaker 1: co-authored authoritative tomes that

00:00:00: Speaker 1: illuminate the depths of Oracle Application

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Express.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Expert, oracle Application Express and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oracle Application Express for mobile web

00:00:00: Speaker 1: applications stand as testaments to his

00:00:00: Speaker 1: dedication to sharing knowledge and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: empowering others.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I'm happy to welcome Roel Hartmann to Devs

00:00:00: Speaker 1: on Tape.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Hi Roel, hi Kai.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: That was quite a nice introduction, I'm

00:00:00: Speaker 2: impressed by myself, awesome.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So, as usual, I'm not doing it as a first

00:00:00: Speaker 1: take, but, yeah, there will be no second

00:00:00: Speaker 1: today.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: No there is no time because we're too busy

00:00:00: Speaker 1: here.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Exactly, I hope it was quite, quite on

00:00:00: Speaker 1: point what I got here.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So like you're an Ace director right now,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: yeah, I'm an Ace director since 2010 or so.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah to the August 2000.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So is it real that you entered the Ace

00:00:00: Speaker 1: program in 2009 and just one year later you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: became an Ace director?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yes, I guess there was no Ace associated at

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the time, so we're only only two levels,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: but it's quite a quite a accomplishment to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: get to Ace director, like one step up in

00:00:00: Speaker 1: one year right.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yes, but I think I was already qualifying

00:00:00: Speaker 2: for Ace director a little bit earlier, so

00:00:00: Speaker 2: it's just like a one year step up.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So it didn't feel like that.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I was already doing presentations etc,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: since I don't know, years before that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Awesome?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my impression when I first

00:00:00: Speaker 1: met you.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I think it was like eight or nine years ago,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: right when I started my career in Oracle

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Apex.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I saw you at conferences and I was just

00:00:00: Speaker 1: guessing.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You might don't have a real home because

00:00:00: Speaker 1: he's just traveling around the world and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: speaking at conferences, contributing to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: all over the world communities, so you're

00:00:00: Speaker 1: very often on the move, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That's what all the people say, hey where

00:00:00: Speaker 1: are you going next?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I might feel that way, but

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that's also an aspect that I really really

00:00:00: Speaker 2: like.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I'm self-employed and that gives me the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: opportunity and the freedom to do more or

00:00:00: Speaker 2: less whatever I like, within certain

00:00:00: Speaker 2: limitations, of course.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So, and there was also the main reason to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: become independent.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I was working with a regular software

00:00:00: Speaker 2: company earlier and I was already able to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: deliver presentations here and there, but

00:00:00: Speaker 2: also got a feeling that it was limited,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: because the company always asked what's in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: it for us and that sounds very familiar, of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: course, and I was a little bit tired of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that, because there is no direct revenue of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: doing presentations and no financial

00:00:00: Speaker 2: revenue.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I would say no direct, but there is an

00:00:00: Speaker 2: indirect one, but that takes time.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: People know it is like creating a brand, so

00:00:00: Speaker 2: yourself is a brand.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's not that it's the goal, but that just

00:00:00: Speaker 2: happens and people can find you.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So since I became self-employed 12 years

00:00:00: Speaker 2: ago, something like that I never had to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: look for work.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: For instance, people just contacted me and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: said hey, I know you have seen your blogs,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I've seen you presenting, we've got a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: problem.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Can you help us to solve it?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: And those projects you're doing as a

00:00:00: Speaker 1: self-employed right, usually in the area

00:00:00: Speaker 1: where you're living.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you're from Netherlands right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So are you working in Germany, netherlands,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: or is it across the globe?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Now I'm only working in.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Mostly at the time I work in Netherlands.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So since two, three years I got a German

00:00:00: Speaker 2: based customer, but before that it was

00:00:00: Speaker 2: always in the Netherlands.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Okay, because you don't get offers from

00:00:00: Speaker 2: overseas, or yeah, I did some very small

00:00:00: Speaker 2: things for someone in Taiwan and someone in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the US, but it's complicated for especially

00:00:00: Speaker 2: tax wise and those kind of things.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So it's if we keep it in a European union

00:00:00: Speaker 2: everything is easier, correct.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: so, yeah, you're traveling around being on

00:00:00: Speaker 1: conferences and you're contributing to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: ODTAC.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, like you're in the, even on the board

00:00:00: Speaker 1: of directors.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So this sounds like much, much things to do,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: many things to do.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It is.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I've been in the board of directors

00:00:00: Speaker 2: since five years, so the term is six years,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so two, three years terms nowadays, and um,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so we have to have you have to be elected,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and those kind of things.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So the question is, why would you do

00:00:00: Speaker 2: something like that?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Don't you have a user group at home?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, we have a user group at home,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: but that's not.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's of course.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's in Netherlands, smaller, they have

00:00:00: Speaker 2: less activities.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And the first time I was at Casecope was in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: New Orleans in I don't know 2008 or

00:00:00: Speaker 2: something like that, and I was immediately

00:00:00: Speaker 2: hooked because the sheer size of the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: conference it was larger than I was

00:00:00: Speaker 2: expecting, but it was larger than I was

00:00:00: Speaker 2: used of in the Netherlands, for instance,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and maybe not larger than Doha, but I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: didn't have the time at that moment in time,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: but that's exactly the same, the correct

00:00:00: Speaker 2: size of people.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So you can meet everyone.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So, and all the experts are here.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I was sitting in the pool with Tom

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Kuythorne at that time, and then Stephen

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Forresty and all those big names.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: They attended Casecope and everyone was

00:00:00: Speaker 2: very approachable.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So you can meet them during breakfast or

00:00:00: Speaker 2: lunch or dinner or in the hallway or in the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: pool or whatever you are, and everyone was

00:00:00: Speaker 2: approachable and friendly and that just

00:00:00: Speaker 2: said, hey, this is the place where I want

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to be.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I only missed one Casecope in all those

00:00:00: Speaker 2: years.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you were attendee, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You're not presenter at that time, or did

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you start at the?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: first time.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The first time I was only in AT&T and I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: remember showing something.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We had a pretty neat solution at that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: moment in time which enabled drag and drop

00:00:00: Speaker 2: stuff in Apex, and so I showed that to the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Apex development team members at that time.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: David Peek was one of them, and Joe Kalman

00:00:00: Speaker 2: was there as well and a couple of other

00:00:00: Speaker 2: ones and so I showed them that this is what

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I created and they were amazed.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: They said, hey, can you do that in Apex?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So they were surprised that you could do

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that in their product.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I said yeah, and then I listened to the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: presentations and I said the presentation

00:00:00: Speaker 2: is pretty good, I can do that too.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I would say I could have done better.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So some aspects you would change right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you had ideas to do it better.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, so the solution that I showed there.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I just turned that into a presentation

00:00:00: Speaker 2: because apparently it was something special.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I didn't think it was very special

00:00:00: Speaker 2: beforehand, but other people did, and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that's a lot of times if people don't want

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to present because they say I think it's

00:00:00: Speaker 2: scary to present, but one of the other

00:00:00: Speaker 2: reasons usually what I'm doing is not that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: special, and that's totally wrong, Because

00:00:00: Speaker 2: there's always people in the audience that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: are surprised by the solutions or the ideas

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that you're presenting, Because for you

00:00:00: Speaker 2: they are quite normal.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But they are special for other people, and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I think this is the role that the voters or

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the review of abstract, the abstract

00:00:00: Speaker 1: submission, the call for paper is doing

00:00:00: Speaker 1: right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: They're listening or they're reading your

00:00:00: Speaker 1: abstracts and seeing if this might be

00:00:00: Speaker 1: interesting for the broader mass.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So it's always a great thing to submit like

00:00:00: Speaker 1: three or four talks, even those you would

00:00:00: Speaker 1: not expect to be so useful for everyone,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: but there might be people who are

00:00:00: Speaker 1: interested in exactly a solution you did

00:00:00: Speaker 1: before.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you had a problem maybe, and then there

00:00:00: Speaker 1: are two options you find a solution from

00:00:00: Speaker 1: someone else and you know there are blogs

00:00:00: Speaker 1: and tweets or whatever about that, or you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: made a solution for a problem your own and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: then you didn't find anything in the web

00:00:00: Speaker 1: for that.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So this might be interesting for many other

00:00:00: Speaker 1: developers too.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Exactly that's the case.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But also people think, if they, we would

00:00:00: Speaker 2: love to see all the new presenters, not

00:00:00: Speaker 2: only here but also at the Dutch Youth Group.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Probably in Germany is exactly the same.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We want to see new people, and how do you

00:00:00: Speaker 2: get them to present?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So one of the things is people might think,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: if I can only submit a presentation, if I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: already have it ready.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: All the slides should be there, the demo

00:00:00: Speaker 2: should be there, etc.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: That's not the way I'm doing it.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, never.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So usually what I'm saying is this is a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: nice subject, so I come up with a title and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I come up with a short description and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: saying this is my submission, and then they

00:00:00: Speaker 2: accept it and then they say, oh, I now have

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to deliver as well.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a motivation to learn right.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Exactly that's the way you said.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Also, there was one.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I did a presentation a couple of years

00:00:00: Speaker 2: about Docker.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So my idea said this is a cool technology,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I want to know more about it, but I don't

00:00:00: Speaker 2: have the time or no specific good reason to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: do so.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But I submitted an abstract Docker for

00:00:00: Speaker 2: dummies and with a little story in there

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and then got accepted.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And then I said, okay, now I have to dive

00:00:00: Speaker 2: into this technology and it's an

00:00:00: Speaker 2: opportunity to learn, and that's great.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I remember those talks.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I saw them a couple of times, because you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: are attending so many different conferences

00:00:00: Speaker 1: and you don't have to Inventor in that,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: reinvent the wheel, every single conference

00:00:00: Speaker 1: right, so you have like a repertoire of

00:00:00: Speaker 1: current, current presentations.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And then you, absolutely, it's just a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: matter of reuse, recycle.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, of course, there are always new

00:00:00: Speaker 1: attendees on conferences.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Who likes to have your speech?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Speak about this topic, and at least if you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: were Presenting the same presentation for a

00:00:00: Speaker 1: couple of times, it's getting even better,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: right.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a sense.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I did this morning in a presentation.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I don't know exactly how often I've did it,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: done it, but I think maybe ten times now.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But it's, it's.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's always a different hook.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's not like it's totally scripted.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: There are not always the same, because

00:00:00: Speaker 2: we're always reaction from the audience and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: asking questions and those kind of things.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Oh, there's always a little bit different.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The first time is always that the hardest

00:00:00: Speaker 2: one, and then brand new, and then you're

00:00:00: Speaker 2: getting to a certain flow and Delivering

00:00:00: Speaker 2: those kind of things is, is, is better and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: you don't submit it for the same conference

00:00:00: Speaker 2: twice.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: That's not what I'm doing, but just like

00:00:00: Speaker 2: this whole year of conferences and every

00:00:00: Speaker 2: conference, I'm just submitting the same

00:00:00: Speaker 2: presentation presentations and now and then

00:00:00: Speaker 2: you have to come up with a new one.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I got some new ones.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I got two new ones, that was, which is just

00:00:00: Speaker 2: a title in a short description, but I have

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to create them because I have to deliver

00:00:00: Speaker 2: them, in the fall, at least I think, in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Croatia.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So oh yeah, for it is not in Zagreb, it's

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the other one, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great conference.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I was thinking of that again also.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But yeah, let's, let's Take a step back.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you were starting to present, right, and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: then you present even more and more, and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: how does this journey proceed?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you're ended at the port of director

00:00:00: Speaker 1: member.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: How does, how does this happen?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I liked casecode and then I said I want

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to Give back to the community.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So casecode gave me a lot because I met all

00:00:00: Speaker 2: this fact.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It is these great people and people they

00:00:00: Speaker 2: only knew from the internet.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: They were just there and regular people.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I and I said, hey, I want to give back

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to the community.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I started doing the content chair.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So first I was the first thing was just in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the committee for judging abstracts.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Of course, no, you, it's like a growing

00:00:00: Speaker 2: path.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So you're going through the abstract

00:00:00: Speaker 2: selection committee and then I was content

00:00:00: Speaker 2: chair and then you get to know people, more

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and more people, and just I just love the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Organization and the things that we're

00:00:00: Speaker 2: doing.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So now I want to give back to the community

00:00:00: Speaker 2: because while odi-tug is us based, it is a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: worldwide organization.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I think, hey, to have an European

00:00:00: Speaker 2: perspective of things might be a welcome

00:00:00: Speaker 2: addition to the American, mostly American

00:00:00: Speaker 2: based board.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Anyway, yeah, right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So yeah, you just started in a review

00:00:00: Speaker 1: committee and then you work more and more

00:00:00: Speaker 1: and contributed, and then at some point you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: were recognized, right, and then I think

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you were nominated to be voted for, or you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: can nominate yourself.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna like a surprise one.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Hey, I'm in the board of directors.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's not like the ace problem, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, it's not like this program.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: In this case, you say I am gonna step up, I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: want to be on the ballot if you want, right

00:00:00: Speaker 2: now and then, and then there's an election,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and then you Might or might not get in so

00:00:00: Speaker 2: what Influence has that on your private

00:00:00: Speaker 2: life or your work life?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So if you are having meetings with them

00:00:00: Speaker 1: over overseas, you just have to stay.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Stay up late, right oh?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: no, the meeting.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Luckily the meetings are on a good time, so

00:00:00: Speaker 2: they are in their morning hours, so in my

00:00:00: Speaker 2: afternoon.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we have our.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Every month.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We have a meeting and they're like a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: regular.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The regular meetings is always in on the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Friday or Saturday afternoon in our time

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Times on so early like depends on where the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: other people are located.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: If they're on East Coast it's somewhere

00:00:00: Speaker 2: between seven and nine over here.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So, um yeah, you're planning to to extend

00:00:00: Speaker 1: your stay in the board of directors.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You said there is a period of six years

00:00:00: Speaker 1: when you were there's a term limit, so my

00:00:00: Speaker 1: limit ends next year.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oh, so only one year left.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Can you?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Can you come back in the next years?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yes, you can come back.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It has to be.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I have to check the bylaws.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It says how many years will be in between.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: There's a strict rule.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Okay, so there might be a place for you,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: right?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, but also I would like to give all the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: people the opportunity to, of course, yeah

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to to bring their take and their experience

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to the board of directors as well.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, that's, that's nice.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So, speaking of the conferences, so you're

00:00:00: Speaker 1: very active and I'll detect I know you are

00:00:00: Speaker 1: very active on other conferences as a

00:00:00: Speaker 1: presenter what is your favorite conference

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Besides casecode?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: okay, I cannot take that one.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I think it is maybe Croatia, mm-hmm, the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: island one.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The island one?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, because we are.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It looks like we're on island here as well,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: right?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a big resort in the middle

00:00:00: Speaker 2: of nothing and you can see the mountains

00:00:00: Speaker 2: far away.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We can see the airport, but, and we can see

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Denver downtown, but Denver is like half an

00:00:00: Speaker 2: hour from here.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, but by car.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, one and a half hours by bus.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So all listeners might have heard about

00:00:00: Speaker 1: that in the In an earlier episode of that's

00:00:00: Speaker 1: on tape.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So we were commuting through Denver with

00:00:00: Speaker 1: with by bus.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's a train as well.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: There's a train.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, we took that too, but it takes even

00:00:00: Speaker 1: longer to get along that, yeah.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So yeah, that means that the next casecope

00:00:00: Speaker 1: is the last casecope in your current period

00:00:00: Speaker 1: in the board of directors, and it will be

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Nashville, as I yes, I'll be national and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: it will be in July for the first time, I

00:00:00: Speaker 1: think.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Correct, all right, so let's take another

00:00:00: Speaker 1: very big step back.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So I would like to know more about your

00:00:00: Speaker 1: career.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You said already that you Getting into

00:00:00: Speaker 1: self-employment, but was you?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You developed software before, so how did

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you Come into the software development?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: At all like at all beginning.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: First begin I studied informatics.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Okay, I can't do anything else, apparently,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so I studied the informatics.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I'm an Master of science in informatics.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And then the first thing I had to do civil

00:00:00: Speaker 2: service in that, instead back down.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Not anymore, and luckily it was.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I could do some work and related to it

00:00:00: Speaker 2: during civil service and Then I worked for

00:00:00: Speaker 2: a software company, mostly as Phillips,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: yeah, did couple of projects over there,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and after five or seven years I mean I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: think it's first five years I switch to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: another software company which was based in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the Hague at that moment in time, stay

00:00:00: Speaker 2: there for 17 years or something like that a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: long time.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So what?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: What programming languages did you use

00:00:00: Speaker 1: before?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Obviously not apex or html db.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: It was like I started web development hours,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: client side or there was no asca.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I'm that old.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: There was no web development.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oh, there was no web at all.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I don't, I'm there.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Probably was some kind of web, but but as I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: did start with Oracle stuff pretty early,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so forms 2.3 and that's my my start a bit,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and it's Oracle case and Oracle case

00:00:00: Speaker 2: dictionary, something like that.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So there was a case tool back in the old

00:00:00: Speaker 2: days which has a similar reference to what

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Apex did, so you could define the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: functionality and then press the button,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: wait for a long time and it would generate

00:00:00: Speaker 2: code.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: And so that's kind of low code then.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Not very low but not as easy, of course, as

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Apex did.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I was using that stuff.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So it was all Oracle.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Back then it was Oracle version 5 on MS-DOS

00:00:00: Speaker 2: just running a computer, 20 megabyte kind

00:00:00: Speaker 2: of thing, upgrades to 6, etc.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So all the versions and I did some Pascal

00:00:00: Speaker 2: programming as well and.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Db3 kind of thing, so back in the old days.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But at a certain moment in time I only did

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Oracle.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So the large Oracle forms stuff, Oracle

00:00:00: Speaker 2: reports for many many years.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And after a certain moment in time I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: encountered HTMLDB at a project and I said,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: hey, let's what's that.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I installed that and said, hey, this

00:00:00: Speaker 2: actually is pretty cool.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Then you were just focusing on it.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why we're here now.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So do you have any nice stories about your

00:00:00: Speaker 1: project?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So at least you're very long in the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: business, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So what is your most interesting customer

00:00:00: Speaker 1: experience using Apex?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oh, that's a difficult question.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Of course, what you're doing right now the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: current one is the most technically

00:00:00: Speaker 2: challenging thing, that's the most features.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: There are some other ones that I cannot

00:00:00: Speaker 2: talk about because it's for Ministry of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Defense in the Netherlands.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I know actually a lot and know how much

00:00:00: Speaker 2: you can tell.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I'm saying, on the safe side, I won't

00:00:00: Speaker 2: tell anything.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Sure, and the current one right now, for

00:00:00: Speaker 2: instance, is working for a German customer

00:00:00: Speaker 2: in the pharmaceutical industry.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So what we're doing right now is creating

00:00:00: Speaker 2: software to support pharmaceutical

00:00:00: Speaker 2: organizations in drugstrials, and the main

00:00:00: Speaker 2: issue with drugstrials is they run all over

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the world and every country has to run

00:00:00: Speaker 2: rules regarding what should happen when

00:00:00: Speaker 2: something is wrong with the drug.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So if someone gets an adverse reaction so

00:00:00: Speaker 2: you're taking a drug as an inner test and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: your nose started bleeding, which was not

00:00:00: Speaker 2: expected, and then that should be reported

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to whoever is in charge.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So the patient is reporting that to a

00:00:00: Speaker 1: doctor?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, the doctor is reporting that, so of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: course the patient has to report it to the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: doctor first or otherwise, the doctor

00:00:00: Speaker 2: doesn't know, but the doctor will report

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that first to their own organization.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But then it has to bubble up and if it's

00:00:00: Speaker 2: very serious it has to go to all the people,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: all the doctors, all the organizations that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: are using that drug.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Especially if it's if people die, then

00:00:00: Speaker 2: everyone should immediately stop using it.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But if it's a nosebleed, then you might

00:00:00: Speaker 2: want to investigate more.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So, hey, have you seen that before as well?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But the doctors doesn't know who else is

00:00:00: Speaker 2: using that drug.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And also, every country has its own rules

00:00:00: Speaker 2: saying hey, if it's very serious, then you

00:00:00: Speaker 2: have to report it in three days, and all

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the ones says seven days.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: And it seems like even a very long range if

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you have to report like there are people

00:00:00: Speaker 1: dying from it but you have like three days

00:00:00: Speaker 1: time to report that.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So it's not that usually you don't report

00:00:00: Speaker 2: it.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: People are dying from the drug that you say.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: People have taken the drug and they die it

00:00:00: Speaker 2: has.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, it does not necessarily have to be a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: correlation between those or causation.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And so we're creating the software that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: does implement all those rules from all the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: countries that are working with a bit with

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the drugs trials and we make sure that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: everyone's informed at the right time.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we're sending out stuff, we're

00:00:00: Speaker 2: distributing documents, we check if those

00:00:00: Speaker 2: documents reach the endpoint, those kind of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: things.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we have to because we have to prove that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: everything is done according to the rules,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so you have a unified API like something so

00:00:00: Speaker 2: they have.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You're working on one system for one of

00:00:00: Speaker 1: those pharmaceutical companies and you're

00:00:00: Speaker 1: sending it to all the people who are using

00:00:00: Speaker 1: a certain drug, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Are you sending out just the, the documents,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: to the doctors that are using the, the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: prescriptive drug, or do you send the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: information to another system which is

00:00:00: Speaker 1: equally from another, from another company

00:00:00: Speaker 1: creating drugs?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We're sending out emails and they might

00:00:00: Speaker 2: contain those documents or not.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: That's depending on some kind of settings,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and we register that documents have been

00:00:00: Speaker 2: received by those doctors and those doctors

00:00:00: Speaker 2: have to go into the application, or if they

00:00:00: Speaker 2: download it directly, it's automatically

00:00:00: Speaker 2: tracked and then we can see that they have

00:00:00: Speaker 2: like a read and understood kind of thing.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we can prove that we do or do diligence,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: because otherwise the FDA of something

00:00:00: Speaker 2: might come in and say hey, prove that you

00:00:00: Speaker 2: did everything that you should have done to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: prevent all kinds of stuff.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So I think I attended this talk in Oslo

00:00:00: Speaker 1: where you're talking about that.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So I was interested in how do you detect if

00:00:00: Speaker 1: a doctor was reading the email right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So we have this kind of that pixel thing on

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the page.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So if it's loaded then there will be a call

00:00:00: Speaker 1: to a web server, like receiving an image to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: be shown in the email, and then your server

00:00:00: Speaker 1: recognizes that this client from this email

00:00:00: Speaker 1: is fetching this image and then you can

00:00:00: Speaker 1: track it.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But most of the clients, like a mail in

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Apple, for example, or Outlook from

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Microsoft, are prohibiting such things.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So do you have one solution that is like

00:00:00: Speaker 1: still working, or do you change the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: procedure on how like to circumvent that?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Now the most.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The Apple mail does not prevent that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: because it's not like a little pixel, we're

00:00:00: Speaker 2: showing like a larger image.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So if you're doing a little image or little

00:00:00: Speaker 2: pixel, you don't see it and people say

00:00:00: Speaker 2: they're tracking stuff in there.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: That's not loud.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But if you're showing something very

00:00:00: Speaker 2: obvious, then it will work.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Sometimes in some setting, I think it's

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Outlook that says hey, you want to put this

00:00:00: Speaker 2: on the safe senders list and if you click

00:00:00: Speaker 2: on that then you're good.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's not a 100% solution, but it just helps.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, okay, I was guessing it was.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I was thinking it was a 100% solution,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: because it's like you have to prove that

00:00:00: Speaker 1: someone read the email.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But the ultimate proof is that they go into

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the application and download the document,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: or look at the document and say, hey, I've

00:00:00: Speaker 2: read and understood this, but they received

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the email, step one.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Otherwise they can say I've never received

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the email and then we can just say, yes,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you did, yeah you have the headers right,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: that the email server received it, but if

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you don't have an image loaded, so this is

00:00:00: Speaker 1: happening all the time currently on my

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Outlook.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So it's not loading only one image in an

00:00:00: Speaker 1: email.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So I have to explicitly say load external

00:00:00: Speaker 1: images, even for my colleagues.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So it's very restrictive and I didn't do

00:00:00: Speaker 1: that by myself.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Right, Get rid of Outlook.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's Microsoft products.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, there are some reasons to stick to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Outlook for at least for the business

00:00:00: Speaker 1: emails.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I'm not a doctor who's

00:00:00: Speaker 1: receiving mail from your system, so I think

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I'm pretty good staying there until now.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, so you were working for a couple

00:00:00: Speaker 1: of years in this project now.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, two and a half years three maybe?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's still getting new insights.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You can make presentations out of it, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So, yeah, actually, yes, it does.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So once the two are coming up, should be

00:00:00: Speaker 2: coming up.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: One of them is I've named APEX CI CD from

00:00:00: Speaker 2: the trenches.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we're doing CI CD.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So there's all people saying we know how to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: do it and they have a theoretical story.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: And maybe you say, hey, we've implemented

00:00:00: Speaker 2: this with Jenkins and all kinds of flows.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We also got our own approach which works

00:00:00: Speaker 2: for us, and there's probably some elements.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I don't say that everyone should use that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: same approach, but there's probably some

00:00:00: Speaker 2: elements in there that might be very

00:00:00: Speaker 2: interesting for other people as well.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So my idea is to present that as a full

00:00:00: Speaker 2: blown presentation.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I think the first time will be Croatia.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So do you let your presentation be curated

00:00:00: Speaker 1: by the customer after creating it, or do

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you ask for specific screenshots you might

00:00:00: Speaker 1: show?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Or do you get even back to the customer and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: say if you can do that?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So I know from my perspective.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So if I'm creating presentations where

00:00:00: Speaker 1: customer relation things are in it, I

00:00:00: Speaker 1: usually go back to them and show them the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: presentation or just a bunch of screenshots

00:00:00: Speaker 1: and that it would just say I will talk

00:00:00: Speaker 1: about this and that I'm allowed to do that.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So there will be no reference.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Not necessarily will be.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I might name the company, but there is no

00:00:00: Speaker 2: reference in any screenshot or whatever to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that company.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So it's not like a specific solution for

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that company.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's just like little bits and bytes that

00:00:00: Speaker 2: we have implemented for them that can

00:00:00: Speaker 2: easily be reused for other ones.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I don't think I need to find approval,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: but maybe I should, but depending on the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: kind of customer.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That was exactly my thinking that, as you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: were talking about the technique you are

00:00:00: Speaker 1: using to we have to call it track the users

00:00:00: Speaker 1: that are reading mails, there are a lot of

00:00:00: Speaker 1: people who are very, very against exactly

00:00:00: Speaker 1: such a thing, right, because even if there

00:00:00: Speaker 1: are doctors and that's something they have

00:00:00: Speaker 1: to do they have to receive the email they

00:00:00: Speaker 1: have to track that it is not in their mind

00:00:00: Speaker 1: to be tracked automatically.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Right, there might be some controversial

00:00:00: Speaker 1: about that.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: There might be.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Exactly, and if you bring this discussion

00:00:00: Speaker 1: in the context with the customer who's

00:00:00: Speaker 1: asking you to do such a practice, there

00:00:00: Speaker 1: might be some backslap.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, but we don't want to do it secretly.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So if the customer says how does that work

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and we can explain them because it is no,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: say, hey, you're secretly trying to track

00:00:00: Speaker 2: what I'm doing.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: And it's not secret because we can tell you,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I mean, there will be not the doctors,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: there will not be the customer itself, like

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the pharmacy company who's having the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: problem If you're having a talk and there's

00:00:00: Speaker 1: a very strict I call them German guy who's

00:00:00: Speaker 1: sitting there saying so this is.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Gdpr.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You cannot track them.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: This is not allowed, and there are people

00:00:00: Speaker 1: just standing up for the rights for data

00:00:00: Speaker 1: protection and for anonymity and no

00:00:00: Speaker 1: tracking things, and that this might be a

00:00:00: Speaker 1: backlash.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be, but probably those

00:00:00: Speaker 2: persons.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So those people have outlook installed and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: with all the privacy settings to maximum,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so they will not get that experience then

00:00:00: Speaker 2: yeah, okay, they have to click on the link

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and manually accept the data you have to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: allow this like a say add it to the safe

00:00:00: Speaker 2: sender's list.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it works.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, great.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Okay, this is a point in time in the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: podcast.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I want to switch over to the categories.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So we have usually three categories I'm

00:00:00: Speaker 1: asking you questions from.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: The first is hypothetically in private and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: consumption.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: There are many words in there I might chew

00:00:00: Speaker 1: down today.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But yeah, let's start with the hypothetical

00:00:00: Speaker 1: category.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So if you could undone one technological

00:00:00: Speaker 1: trend in the past, what would it be?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: That's a difficult one.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The technology trend that I despise

00:00:00: Speaker 2: advertisements, advertisements at all.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Spamming, email spams those kind of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: advertisements.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I want to have a clean inbox in my email

00:00:00: Speaker 2: which is not polluted by stuff I don't want.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, and also advertisements on

00:00:00: Speaker 1: websites.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oh, if you go into websites.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: A cookie asking cookie properies.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not an advertisement Like

00:00:00: Speaker 1: banners I mean, banners are more often

00:00:00: Speaker 1: blocked away from Chrome or something like

00:00:00: Speaker 1: that but advertisement in the internet.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So no, I think I hate the cookie.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: What is it called, the European cookie

00:00:00: Speaker 2: thing that every website asks Are you okay

00:00:00: Speaker 2: with cookie?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yes, of course I'm okay.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Reject all or accept all.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah so that's the most stupid thing that's

00:00:00: Speaker 2: ever been implemented.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That's a great answer.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I was asking a little bit further because I

00:00:00: Speaker 1: was just thinking of if we wouldn't have

00:00:00: Speaker 1: any advertisement on websites or emails.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: There wouldn't be free services, right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So they will charge you for everything, as

00:00:00: Speaker 1: news sites are doing it right now.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So if you're reading news, you will be

00:00:00: Speaker 1: bombed by 560 ads at one time, and then you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: have to pay one dollar or two for an

00:00:00: Speaker 1: article to read.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But I think if there weren't be any ads on

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the web, there might be some other way to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: finance companies.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we would have other problems.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So then you have to pay, otherwise you pay

00:00:00: Speaker 2: through advertisements or you have to pay

00:00:00: Speaker 2: real money, real money.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: And that's another discussion for another

00:00:00: Speaker 1: podcast, I think.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But yeah, we can just.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, I see it the same way that we don't

00:00:00: Speaker 1: have to click on the cookie things for the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: next year.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I hope they will do something about it.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I was searching for plugins that

00:00:00: Speaker 1: automatically click this thing away.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: But just for a couple.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I could just look into that.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: This is a niche.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Now there are a couple of providers that

00:00:00: Speaker 1: are having this cookie thing and then they

00:00:00: Speaker 1: are unique or then they are just a generic

00:00:00: Speaker 1: that you can really access the buttons and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: click on it when they arrive.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But I don't know how it is on the legally

00:00:00: Speaker 1: side if you automatically click them away.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But I mean, you might not care, probably

00:00:00: Speaker 1: not All right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So next question is the exact opposite.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So what would you like to invent or create

00:00:00: Speaker 1: in the technology sector what wasn't here

00:00:00: Speaker 1: before?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, if you had an answer to that, I was

00:00:00: Speaker 1: already doing it, right, I mean, if you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: have any plan but you're not able to do so,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: so it could be a time traveling machine,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: obviously, but if there's something which

00:00:00: Speaker 1: might be a little bit more, realistic,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: something that's, I think, something in a

00:00:00: Speaker 1: medical world that helps people better than

00:00:00: Speaker 1: they don't get sick that much, something

00:00:00: Speaker 1: like that.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you wouldn't go into the technology

00:00:00: Speaker 1: sector at all, like no.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I'm not Elon Musk.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah things that having a spaceship is a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: brilliant idea and killing Twitter is a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: good idea.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, I mean it could be some

00:00:00: Speaker 1: software which is also having people with

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the medical situation.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, that could be anything, could be

00:00:00: Speaker 2: drugs related or software related,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: something that helps patients or helps

00:00:00: Speaker 2: people preventing from becoming a patient.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So maybe the people stay healthy, don't do

00:00:00: Speaker 2: more exercising and so they don't get sick.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That's a great point.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Next question hypothetically again, what do

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you estimate your working day or daily life

00:00:00: Speaker 1: would change in the next 10 years?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The next 10 years.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I would retire, hopefully so, somewhere in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: those next 10 years.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So that's the plan actually, and what's

00:00:00: Speaker 1: happening when you retire?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So I'm just imagining a Dutch guy sitting

00:00:00: Speaker 1: in the garden with all the little I don't

00:00:00: Speaker 1: know how to call it garden or just being

00:00:00: Speaker 1: totally chilled, sitting at the beach

00:00:00: Speaker 1: eating flour.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So tell me, what vision do you have from

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the retirement then?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I think I'll probably be like a slow

00:00:00: Speaker 2: retirement, so not from one day in or from

00:00:00: Speaker 2: doing all kinds of stuff to do nothing,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: just doing the things I really like to do.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Maybe sit in the garden, walk the dog,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: visit cities, just relax.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Maybe still some technical stuff.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Maybe there are more people in the IT

00:00:00: Speaker 2: industry or in Oracle IT industry that say

00:00:00: Speaker 2: that they are retiring, but they're never

00:00:00: Speaker 2: really.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: They're still there, they're still on

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Twitter, they're still now and then do a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: little presentation somewhere.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: It's apparently very hard to retire

00:00:00: Speaker 2: completely.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I just talked the other day to a guy who

00:00:00: Speaker 1: was retiring so I'm not unveiling his name

00:00:00: Speaker 1: right now because I don't know the order of

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the publishing of the stuff on tape episode.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: But he was retiring for a couple of months,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I think, and it was too boring.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: He went back to development.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yes, Maybe that happened, I don't know,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: maybe it could be.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So moving to California, sitting on the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: beach each and every day and then after a

00:00:00: Speaker 1: certain amount of time?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: No, this is too boring.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I'm coming back.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So, and if I just imagine that you will not

00:00:00: Speaker 1: travel around all over the year, so maybe

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you can just estimate how much days in the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: year like 365 days are you not at home?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Of estimation, I would say four days a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: month.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, okay, four days a month for just

00:00:00: Speaker 1: average.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, yeah, now we are here for a week and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: July we're on holiday, so I'm not at home,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: but it doesn't count as September.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We have cloud worlds, so it's not a week

00:00:00: Speaker 2: and I have to do an order, get apex tour as

00:00:00: Speaker 2: well, which is another week.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So yeah, that's, and then there will be.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Croatia and the work, but not planning to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: go to the work and conference UKOG.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I'm not sure.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: And then there are like planning sessions

00:00:00: Speaker 1: for the next case.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I guess I don't know how early they begin.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: And do you I saw that they used to, or you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: are used to, meet to the in the location.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: The craze will be, so you're going to be on

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the spot there at least one time, I guess

00:00:00: Speaker 1: more than what you know.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, no, no, no.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The conference.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we got the board of directors and we got

00:00:00: Speaker 2: a conference committee.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So and there is some overlap because some

00:00:00: Speaker 2: of the directors aren't part of the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: conference committee, but who do which?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Whether I'm one of those, we don't know, we

00:00:00: Speaker 2: haven't decided yet.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The conference committee will attend the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: site.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So Nashville, I think only once, and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: usually so, and the board of directors

00:00:00: Speaker 2: usually also has their face to face meeting

00:00:00: Speaker 2: in February on the location where it is.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So not always, because at one time we went,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: we should have gone to Boston, I went to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Boston, should have come somewhere else, I

00:00:00: Speaker 2: don't know Somewhere, but in the winter, in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: February, to be really, really cold there.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we got to Wilmington where the YCC

00:00:00: Speaker 2: resides.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Okay, so this is this.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Might be something we can write on that

00:00:00: Speaker 1: list thread.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Could be, yeah, could be All right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So, yeah, this was a question about your

00:00:00: Speaker 1: retirement.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I'm very good to see how do we work.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you're at home that often, that much.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, we see you on many conferences, I

00:00:00: Speaker 1: guess, and you don't have any anything to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: talk about unless you're still in the tech.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you're not going to retire.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I'm going to Okay, that's your bet.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Next question I'm in private.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That's the category for in private.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So are you satisfied with your work life

00:00:00: Speaker 1: balance currently?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So you already said that you have so many,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: so many.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, you can do what you want, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So I guess you are really doing what you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: want and you don't have to.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You don't have problems with your work life

00:00:00: Speaker 1: balance currently, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Absolutely not, otherwise it will be my

00:00:00: Speaker 2: problem Right?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I can influence my work by life balance

00:00:00: Speaker 2: perfectly.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So I'm working from home for a hundred

00:00:00: Speaker 2: percent because not because of COVID, but

00:00:00: Speaker 2: because our project team is in the UK,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: germany, philippines- as well.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So it just doesn't make sense to Doesn't

00:00:00: Speaker 2: make sense to go somewhere where not

00:00:00: Speaker 2: everyone's in there anyway, so and I work

00:00:00: Speaker 2: for four days a week, which is perfectly

00:00:00: Speaker 2: fine for me.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Awesome it's.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: It sounds so, so enjoyable, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: If you just have everything in your own

00:00:00: Speaker 1: responsibility, you can do whatever you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: want.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, you're not going to retire.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I said that again.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: It will be too boring.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Then Another question from the in private

00:00:00: Speaker 1: category what role does your private

00:00:00: Speaker 1: environment play in your job?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So are you surrounded by geeks or nerds, or

00:00:00: Speaker 1: art?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, yeah, I mean in my work, yes, of course,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: but at home, no, no.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: My wife's a doctor, all this daughter is a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: doctor, but she doesn't live in home

00:00:00: Speaker 2: anymore, and the youngest is a student in

00:00:00: Speaker 2: communication.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So there's no Nerd talk.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, no, no.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So if there is no talk, it's usually when

00:00:00: Speaker 2: my wife and daughter talk medical.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Okay, and they can follow right?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: No, they have.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we might have difficult words and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: abbreviations, but if you're a doctor

00:00:00: Speaker 2: there's lots of difficult words that you

00:00:00: Speaker 2: don't know about.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Do you have touching points with your wife

00:00:00: Speaker 1: or your daughter regarding your current

00:00:00: Speaker 1: project you were talking about.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: They know about the current project, but

00:00:00: Speaker 2: they're not part of the.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So they're not not the doctors.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: They were referred by this company because

00:00:00: Speaker 1: they might not receive those medics or

00:00:00: Speaker 1: something.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: No, they're not the doctors that do drug

00:00:00: Speaker 1: trials.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Okay.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oh yeah, drug trials Not.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, I guess All right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Next question from in private Could you

00:00:00: Speaker 1: show us your screen time on your iPhone

00:00:00: Speaker 1: without blushing?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So very active in social media, I know?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I think I switched it off, but you don't

00:00:00: Speaker 1: have anything running right now.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: You mean I I mean, I switch the screen time

00:00:00: Speaker 2: thing.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Oh, the functionality.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, so you cannot show it, so you're

00:00:00: Speaker 1: not going to blush, right?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: No, all right.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Next question usually on the Totally

00:00:00: Speaker 2: depends on here right here.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Might spend quite some time on Twitter and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: in the case, scope app and but I'd beck at

00:00:00: Speaker 2: home is more news, I guess.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, just just news.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, this leads me to the next and last

00:00:00: Speaker 1: category, so it's regarding consumption.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: How do you consume on news like regular

00:00:00: Speaker 1: news and an extent to that new knowledge so

00:00:00: Speaker 1: regular?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: news it's.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I'm using the official sites from the Dutch

00:00:00: Speaker 2: news agencies to follow the news and we got

00:00:00: Speaker 2: an Extronic version of the other paper.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So we we have.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: We had a real version paper version, of

00:00:00: Speaker 2: course, but we stopped having that than

00:00:00: Speaker 2: just an electronic version.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah so I can read those things as well.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: The the other, the Technical news, the work,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: work related news, usually Twitter is my

00:00:00: Speaker 2: still my first Source which might link to

00:00:00: Speaker 2: blogs and those kind of things.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah sure, our short videos I don't like,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: like a lot longer videos.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Okay.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, longer videos.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: I mean, we made this experience on our own,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: that short videos, even if they're embedded

00:00:00: Speaker 1: in Twitter way More got way more engagement

00:00:00: Speaker 1: on that, all right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So Twitter is your first choice, and even

00:00:00: Speaker 1: sure, conferences, right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So are you attending this, the talks and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: conferences, that much, or do you have so

00:00:00: Speaker 1: many to do on the?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so right here is so much else things to do

00:00:00: Speaker 2: so I'm cannot recording podcast, but those

00:00:00: Speaker 2: kind of things I at other conferences are

00:00:00: Speaker 2: trying to attend this many sessions again,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: yeah sure.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So this is another source of.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That's great, all right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: This leads me to the next question, which

00:00:00: Speaker 1: is also in the consumption category.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: How do you deal with the growing flood of

00:00:00: Speaker 1: information via various channels, like news

00:00:00: Speaker 1: notifications on your phone?

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So let me guess, all turned off Also.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: No, lots of the much end up.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, so you don't have to deal with too

00:00:00: Speaker 1: many notifications on your phone during the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: day and no, so during the conference

00:00:00: Speaker 1: everything is on silent, so I don't, so I

00:00:00: Speaker 1: can.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I feel the messages coming in like that and

00:00:00: Speaker 2: At the board here Uses slack as their main.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Okay, communication features on.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Definitely what need to watch that because

00:00:00: Speaker 2: I mean I might need to do something

00:00:00: Speaker 2: somewhere.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Of course I see the emails coming in, but

00:00:00: Speaker 1: if they're really important and you might

00:00:00: Speaker 1: see it on the first first look right and

00:00:00: Speaker 1: then.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, just ignore a swipe swipe left or

00:00:00: Speaker 2: swipe right or that.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the right way to do.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Last question, from the consumption part Do

00:00:00: Speaker 1: you turn off your cell phone at night?

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yes, this on silent at night.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So that means my family can still reach me,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: but no else.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Everything else will be blocked.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That's.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: That's very interesting, because between 10

00:00:00: Speaker 2: in the evening and I think, eight in the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: morning.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: The last five recordings of the podcast, it

00:00:00: Speaker 1: was always the same answer.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: So there are some people who are turning

00:00:00: Speaker 1: off their phone completely.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: There's one person.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: She's even putting her phone in a different

00:00:00: Speaker 1: room at night, charging it in the bathroom,

00:00:00: Speaker 1: not having it in the near of the bed

00:00:00: Speaker 1: because it's yeah, like yeah, I want to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: have near me because, let's say, my, the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: family can reach me.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So if something my parents are quite all

00:00:00: Speaker 2: yeah, but they bought Still alive luckily

00:00:00: Speaker 2: but yeah, around 90, so you definitely need

00:00:00: Speaker 2: to be a reach with it right.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's why I have the phone in the

00:00:00: Speaker 2: bedroom stand, but it's on silent so they

00:00:00: Speaker 2: can reach me.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So they will go through but no one nothing

00:00:00: Speaker 2: else will awesome.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Okay, so that's it all.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: My questions are done.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Well it was a very great insight in your

00:00:00: Speaker 1: life, in your traveling life, so it made it

00:00:00: Speaker 1: very clear for me how it works and I mean

00:00:00: Speaker 1: it is a very great vision to to be so, so

00:00:00: Speaker 1: good in contributing at conferences and the

00:00:00: Speaker 1: same way, you and at the conferences should

00:00:00: Speaker 1: be something.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: New comers and and, yeah, freshly Employee

00:00:00: Speaker 1: People who want to try to to present at

00:00:00: Speaker 1: conferences that that's the right path to

00:00:00: Speaker 1: do so right, attend a conference, look at

00:00:00: Speaker 1: speeches or presentations and then try it

00:00:00: Speaker 1: by your honor.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: You might find a mentor or someone

00:00:00: Speaker 1: experienced.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: There's a mentor program.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Even so, if you can mention that, there's a

00:00:00: Speaker 2: Nash program, ma sh, we are experienced

00:00:00: Speaker 2: people can help Less experienced people

00:00:00: Speaker 2: with their presentations, so they can help

00:00:00: Speaker 2: you creating the presentation, grading,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: abstract, great ideas and yeah, it's just

00:00:00: Speaker 2: like a mentor, mentee kind of thing.

00:00:00: Speaker 2: So if people are interested in doing so,

00:00:00: Speaker 2: then look at the mesh program.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: That's awesome.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, rohan, thank you for your

00:00:00: Speaker 1: participation here in this podcast and I

00:00:00: Speaker 1: hope you have a great and successful

00:00:00: Speaker 1: conference for the last two days.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Now and, yes, thank you for being here in

00:00:00: Speaker 1: the podcast.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Okay, thank you.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: Bye.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: It was nice talking to you.

00:00:00: Speaker 1: All right, bye.