[English] Devs On Tape x Kscope23 – Came over for a beer, got a podcast interview with Erik van Roon

00:00:00: [music]

00:00:13: Welcome to another episode of Devs on Tape. Our guest's software development

00:00:17: odyssey began in 1995 focusing on Oracle applications. With a strong foundation

00:00:22: Oracle 6 and Forms 2.3 - yes the one with macros instead of PL/SQL - and RPT as a

00:00:28: a reporting tool, he embarked on a fascinating career. In 2009, he took a leap into self-employment,

00:00:35: embracing the freedom to forge his own path. Throughout the years, he has closely followed

00:00:40: the evolution of Oracle tools, witnessing their advancements and exploring the endless

00:00:45: possibilities they offer. His passion for his profession is unmatched, as he consistently

00:00:50: strives for the best possible results and demonstrates a genuine eagerness to learn

00:00:55: and grow at many conferences. Today on Devs on Tape we have the privilege of

00:00:59: delving into Eric Van Roon's journey as an Oracle specialist. Join as we uncover

00:01:05: his insights, unravel the challenges he faced and uncover the secrets of his

00:01:09: success. Get ready to be inspired, informed and captivated by the stories

00:01:14: and wisdom of Eric Van Roon. So grab a cup of beer I think, sit back and get

00:01:20: ready to listen to the fascinating world of software development unfold on

00:01:23: on tape with your host and our guest, Eric van Roon.

00:01:27: Let's get started.

00:01:28: Hi, Eric.

00:01:30: - Hi, sounds like an interesting person.

00:01:32: I'd like to meet him.

00:01:33: - Yeah, you might meet him.

00:01:34: So today you're not meeting just me.

00:01:37: Unfortunately, Karl will not be here in Denver

00:01:40: where we speak to you today,

00:01:41: but instead we have Philipp Hartenfeller on this podcast

00:01:44: and Moritz Klein.

00:01:45: Hello, Philipp and hello, Moritz.

00:01:47: - Hi. - Hello.

00:01:48: - Which means you need two people to replace Karl.

00:01:51: Yeah, definitely. You can say that.

00:01:53: But you have to share one microphone, so I hope that's working out fine.

00:01:57: All right, so let's talk about Eric.

00:01:59: So your fascinating career at Oracle with Oracle applications and stuff.

00:02:03: So maybe you can tell us a little bit more about you

00:02:05: besides what I had in this introduction.

00:02:08: Well, first of all, I'd like to make a small correction.

00:02:14: Oracle applications are usually referred to

00:02:17: and what used to be called Oracle applications.

00:02:20: That's what they call nowadays, Oracle Fusion Apps.

00:02:25: Yeah, I think so.

00:02:26: - Okay.

00:02:27: - So, and apart from a very short period early in my career,

00:02:31: I didn't work with that.

00:02:33: I worked with applications built on Oracle technology.

00:02:37: - I mean, it's how you interpret this.

00:02:38: So be not so mean and correct my introduction.

00:02:41: - No, no, no, no.

00:02:42: It's just that in the early days,

00:02:43: Oracle applications was a very specific thing.

00:02:47: - Okay.

00:02:47: It's not what I used to work with.

00:02:50: But I mean it was in the introduction to that it was in 1994, 1995 and it's so long ago

00:02:59: and I wasn't even able to speak at that point I think.

00:03:02: But maybe I cannot remember what Oracle applications were, what they are now.

00:03:07: But you started with that, okay?

00:03:09: Yeah that's correct.

00:03:10: That's, yeah, in 1995, I did, I then was usually, sorry.

00:03:19: At that point I was working as an analyst in laboratories, microbiology, biochemistry,

00:03:26: things like that.

00:03:27: And then in '95 I had a retraining to become an Oracle developer.

00:03:33: And yeah, I did that, liked it a lot.

00:03:35: And yeah, after the retraining, I thought, yeah, I've got one foot in IT, I really,

00:03:41: really need to get that other foot in there as well.

00:03:44: So yeah, started learning stuff related to Oracle and working with it.

00:03:52: What sparked your interest in changing your career?

00:03:54: Well, that was forced, unfortunately.

00:03:59: I had this wonderful vacation with my then girlfriend, now wife, in Turkey.

00:04:08: We rented a car, tried to get into the country, leave Istanbul.

00:04:14: And at some point, to make a long story a bit shorter, we were driving through Istanbul.

00:04:19: There was this truck coming from the left with quite high velocity.

00:04:24: He tried to steer away from us and well, it just landed on top of our car basically.

00:04:31: So yeah, my back was busted and I couldn't do my job anymore.

00:04:35: Been at home for some time.

00:04:37: And then at some point I got the opportunity to get this retraining and I just jumped in.

00:04:44: And I think it was the right decision, right?

00:04:46: Because you're sitting right here and preparing for the conference next week and that's because

00:04:50: you're a very famous speaker right now.

00:04:52: I wouldn't call me famous, maybe infamous.

00:04:56: No, definitely not.

00:04:59: So yeah, you started speaking at conferences at some point, right?

00:05:05: When was your first conference you talked to the people?

00:05:09: The first one where I talked was actually K-Scope and that was in 2014 I think.

00:05:17: Oh so late, I was guessing.

00:05:19: So I got the information from my little tweet bird that you started to get into the self-employment

00:05:26: at 2009.

00:05:27: So it took you like many years to put everything you learned and get everything sorted to go

00:05:33: on conference and speak there.

00:05:35: Yeah well I went to conferences a lot before that but I never went there as a speaker or

00:05:41: always as an attendee.

00:05:43: And when was the turning point then?

00:05:45: Then Patrick Burrell, another Dutch guy, he was going to K-Scope, he was accepted, but

00:05:52: at the last moment his employer said he couldn't go.

00:05:56: So then he asked me, "Would you like to do my talk?"

00:05:59: >> MALTZ: Oh wow.

00:06:00: First talk and then a talk from someone else.

00:06:02: >> KUPPERMAN: And I thought, "Hm, my God.

00:06:04: What am I going to do now?"

00:06:06: So I thought, "Yeah, well, you know, I've been thinking about it every now and then

00:06:10: doing this kind of stuff.

00:06:12: You know what?

00:06:13: just do it. So you attended Kscope before or was it also your first time Kscope

00:06:18: when you presented? No I've attended Kscope before. Okay great I was thinking that it

00:06:23: was like would you like to fly to America to present your first

00:06:27: presentation from my prepared slides right? Yeah well I must admit that that

00:06:33: was a mistake I took over his presentation and he already said well

00:06:38: you do with it what you want make it your own presentation no problem

00:06:43: But I just took his presentation, I prepared it and I did it, but that was a mistake.

00:06:49: I should not have done that.

00:06:50: I should have actually made it my own presentation.

00:06:53: So your presentation was not good enough, you think?

00:06:57: Well it was good enough, but good enough is not what I strive for.

00:07:04: But it was a great starting point, I think.

00:07:05: So you knew for the next times that you would get everything.

00:07:09: I learned right there and then that I should not do other people's material.

00:07:14: And that's maybe something you brought into the SMASHUP program, right?

00:07:18: So Patrick Barrel is also a team member and I think you were a team member there, right?

00:07:23: Exactly.

00:07:24: I was involved in getting it from the ground.

00:07:29: But after a while I had to cut back on some things I'm doing because I have a problem

00:07:35: with saying no to interesting stuff.

00:07:38: And there is a wife at home for some strange reason, she wants to see me every now and

00:07:45: then too.

00:07:46: So, at some point I really had to cut down on some stuff and unfortunately the MESH program

00:07:52: was one of them.

00:07:55: Maybe one day I will get back there again because I think it's a really, really important

00:08:00: thing.

00:08:01: I think we talked about this topic a few episodes before with Samuel, but I think it was in

00:08:07: German language so maybe we can just talk a little bit about the MESH program.

00:08:13: So in my understanding it is a program where experienced speakers are helping not experienced

00:08:18: speakers to get their first presentation or get better or something.

00:08:23: Exactly.

00:08:24: It's the main goal of the program is to get new speakers out there.

00:08:28: Because if you go to conferences, you look around, what do you see?

00:08:34: Speakers, well, they're old like me.

00:08:37: You know, and thank you.

00:08:39: We are also speaker.

00:08:41: Well in general because there are actually young speakers out there, but they are the

00:08:48: exception.

00:08:49: Most of them are the old people and at some point we will all retire.

00:08:55: We will all just leave this and even apart from that, but you're only hearing our perspective.

00:09:02: We need new people out there, people that start sharing their knowledge and their experiences.

00:09:10: It's hard to get people to do that.

00:09:13: And I get that, because it's daunting.

00:09:18: It's something that scares you to just be basically fragile, stand in front of a crowd

00:09:23: and just share what you think is your knowledge.

00:09:27: I mean, what if they don't agree?

00:09:30: What if they are right to not agree?

00:09:34: It is daunting, it's scary.

00:09:39: So yeah, I think it's also important to support people to make that first step, to guide them

00:09:47: in their way to become an experienced speaker.

00:09:51: So the MESH program is there to, if you want to become a speaker, help you get there, help

00:09:59: you in thinking about what is a good title for my talk?

00:10:05: How do I write an abstract that has a chance to be selected?

00:10:12: What if I do get selected?

00:10:14: What now?

00:10:16: So we try to help you in every step of that way.

00:10:21: And it's basically intended for new speakers, but if you've already done a couple of talks

00:10:28: and think yeah well I'm still struggling still I still could have could need some help with

00:10:34: this or that part of the process. You're welcome. That's a really great thing. I was just looking

00:10:42: up for the right domain that our listeners can follow the MASH program. I think it's

00:10:47: mashprogram.wordpress.com. I don't know if you have another URL going on but that's the one.

00:10:54: Yeah, so to our listeners, if you're interested to get on this track and speak at conferences,

00:11:00: you can still reach out to everyone besides Eric.

00:11:03: No, you can reach out to them, I think too, but not in this program.

00:11:07: Well you can reach out to me and I will just tell you where to go, where to look and could

00:11:14: get you into contact with people that are currently running it.

00:11:18: But you can just go to the website as well.

00:11:21: And you can get help there from very experienced speakers.

00:11:23: I think so, the core team is with Liron Amitsie, Mirella Ardeleon, oh God, Neil Chandler, Kim

00:11:31: Beckhansen, Samuel Nietzsche and you as an alumni, right?

00:11:35: And yeah, so go ahead and go to this program and meet exciting people and the MASH program

00:11:41: mentor and speaker hub.

00:11:42: So you decided to…

00:11:43: Something very important to mention here.

00:11:47: least as a Dutch guy who is always thinking about money of course. It's

00:11:52: absolutely free. There is no strings attached whatsoever. You can just

00:11:57: sign up, you will get the help you want, I hope. And yeah, if you signed up and

00:12:05: you think, "Oh no, this was a mistake." Well, just walk away. There are absolutely no

00:12:11: strings attached. Yeah, and I think the worst thing that can happen if you

00:12:14: reach out for the MESH program to get help is just a little bit time to wait

00:12:18: because it's it's free and everyone has to make some some time free for for

00:12:23: talking about this this. That's another important thing don't think that the

00:12:29: MESH program will do the work for you. Yeah. It's your presentation you will

00:12:34: have to do the work they will help you they will assist you but you are going

00:12:39: to have to do the work. That's what you said before, it's your presentation. You

00:12:45: can't do another one's presentation. Exactly. Yeah I mean if it's even to to

00:12:51: to get into this and get a first speech or presentation and then you might think

00:12:57: okay this was nice but this will not be my favorite topic and I will not do it

00:13:02: again but this first time experience I think is the right one. Yeah. Right so you

00:13:06: decided to not take a break but cancel this and focus more on your private life, right?

00:13:16: And why do you started to get in this Sim42 program then instead?

00:13:23: Well that was before I decided that I should have to stop doing a couple of things.

00:13:29: And then you started one here, right?

00:13:32: Well, Symposium 42 is something that came up during pandemic.

00:13:38: Around that time, well, the ACE program was basically being run into the ground by some

00:13:46: people that did something that looked like a hostile takeover.

00:13:51: And there was a lot of concern within the community about the ACE program.

00:13:59: And at some point, a couple of us, well, we just saw it going straight to its grave.

00:14:06: And we thought it was a pity.

00:14:09: And while talking about that, continuously, continuously, we kept talking about it.

00:14:17: I have to say we have this group of speakers that have regular drinks online on Friday

00:14:25: evening, so we speak a lot with each other.

00:14:30: And while we were there, we were talking about this ACE program that was on its way to death,

00:14:39: and what we could do about that.

00:14:41: And then Martin Whitlake, he came up with an idea he's been having for a couple of

00:14:45: years that there should be something similar to the ACE program, not the same, but similar.

00:14:55: But from the community, not from the vendor.

00:14:58: So completely independent recognition program.

00:15:06: Maybe a bit like the Oak Table, but not the Oak Table.

00:15:12: I'm not trying to say that this group of people, the symposium 42, that is comparable to those

00:15:20: awesome people in the oak table, even though some of those people are in Symposium 42 too.

00:15:28: But yeah, it's a bit in between, you know, a bit ACE program, a bit Symposium 42.

00:15:37: There is this group of people that do good things for the community.

00:15:43: They try to speak, organize events, well, stuff like that.

00:15:49: And for that work, they are recognized by inviting them to become a member of Symposium

00:15:55: 42.

00:15:56: Oh great, yeah, that's the point.

00:15:58: I was guessing, what is Symposium 42?

00:16:00: And then I saw some people I know, and I know they're like the elite of something because

00:16:05: I know every one of them, and most of them are also aces and maybe even ace directors,

00:16:12: right?

00:16:13: And I was guessing, what is this for a cult?

00:16:18: What is a mystery about this symposium?

00:16:20: Because I saw the stickers, I saw the tweets and banners and t-shirts and so on.

00:16:24: I didn't know even what it's about.

00:16:26: So now it's nice that you talked about that and told us.

00:16:30: Well it really is a kind of sneaky deliberate thing.

00:16:34: We didn't do a big bang.

00:16:36: Hey guys we're here at Symposium 42.

00:16:39: Yesterday we weren't here, now we are here.

00:16:42: We just started.

00:16:44: So what's the story behind the robes and the mystery stuff you two at the graveyard

00:16:49: together?

00:16:50: I'm sorry, what?

00:16:51: Okay, you will not talk about that stuff, right?

00:16:56: It's still a mystery.

00:16:57: We will come to that later.

00:16:59: Okay, let's come back to the technical topics.

00:17:02: So you started with Oracle 6, right?

00:17:04: So what's the journey after that?

00:17:09: Another correction, sorry.

00:17:10: Come on, it's on your own website.

00:17:12: Yeah, well, Oracle 6 is the one that I started working with, but the oldest version that

00:17:19: I've worked with is Oracle 5.

00:17:22: So the second assignment that I got was an assignment on Oracle 5.

00:17:27: I would send some feedback to the webmaster of your own webpage, right?

00:17:31: So to correct this one.

00:17:32: Good idea.

00:17:33: Good idea.

00:17:34: Yeah, I started out with the early versions, that's right.

00:17:40: What's your favorite feature that was added to the database since you started?

00:17:45: Since I started?

00:17:46: Yeah.

00:17:47: Well, if I would compare it to Oracle 5, then the favorite feature would be PL/SQL.

00:17:54: That's a good one, no?

00:17:58: Yeah, you wrote on the website that there were like macros.

00:18:02: Tell me more about that, so it's so far away from me, I didn't even know what this is.

00:18:06: Well, that's basically the same problem with the database.

00:18:10: Oracle 5 didn't even have PL/SQL yet.

00:18:13: And Forms 2.3 obviously didn't have PL/SQL either.

00:18:18: So back then you worked with what they call macros.

00:18:25: And yeah, you could only do SQL basically.

00:18:29: So you have to do some fancy stuff with a query

00:18:34: and go into another query if the query is successful

00:18:39: or returns something or another path if it doesn't.

00:18:44: And yeah, it's basically that.

00:18:47: - And how did you celebrate the introduction of PL/SQL then?

00:18:50: It sounds like a very big hasty.

00:18:52: - Yeah, well, as you said before,

00:18:55: I started out with Oracle 6 and that had PL/SQL,

00:19:00: so I knew PL/SQL, it was there before I started

00:19:03: working with the Oracle database.

00:19:05: It's just that at some point I had to take a step back

00:19:07: and work with Oracle 5.

00:19:09: - Oh wow, so you had it,

00:19:11: but you were not able to use it in some certain point.

00:19:14: - Exactly.

00:19:15: - All right, so there are many additions.

00:19:17: So what do you think was the biggest release

00:19:22: of Oracle databases in between now?

00:19:25: Like 23.c, or not .c, 23c right now,

00:19:30: the free developer edition.

00:19:32: What was the biggest leap in this versioning?

00:19:36: Hard question, I know, but.

00:19:37: - Yeah, it's a hard question.

00:19:39: Most of the releases had some stuff that you think,

00:19:43: oh my God, why just now?

00:19:45: Why not 10 years ago?

00:19:47: I think, looking back, 7 was an awesome release

00:19:53: that introduced quite a bit of features

00:19:56: that we still use every day today.

00:19:59: So yeah, I think seven would be my choice.

00:20:03: - Great, so I don't even start at seven.

00:20:06: So you guys, Moritz, I'm looking to you.

00:20:08: - No, no, no, no.

00:20:09: Oldest release was an 817 that I used.

00:20:13: I started with Nine-Eye.

00:20:15: Seven was the one with Trusted Server,

00:20:18: when Trusted Server came along, right?

00:20:20: - No.

00:20:20: - Tell us more about that, Moritz.

00:20:21: - No, that's because I'm working closely

00:20:23: with an Oracle guy, with Richard Allen,

00:20:25: and he's, but has been with Oracle long ago.

00:20:29: I think he introduced, he was a PM for Trusted Turbo back then.

00:20:33: I thought you can talk about more about this old stuff because Philip and I loved history

00:20:39: class right?

00:20:40: So we like to hear about the ancient times of development in the Oracle database.

00:20:45: So what is the main technology you're working with right now in the daily business?

00:20:52: SQL, PL/SQL and forms.

00:20:56: My current client is a company that has a legacy system that's very important for them.

00:21:07: Oracle 19, okay, so that's good.

00:21:12: And forms.

00:21:13: And designers.

00:21:14: They even still use designers.

00:21:18: Did you already hear about APEX?

00:21:20: What's that?

00:21:21: Okay, let's not talk about that.

00:21:26: It's that fancy new program in language that Larry is promoting right now.

00:21:30: Yeah, the main thing of Larry every day, right?

00:21:34: Well, I do know Apex of course, and I love Apex, absolutely love it.

00:21:39: But I'm definitely not an Apex developer.

00:21:42: I play with it at home, I build some simple stuff for myself, but that doesn't make you

00:21:48: an Apex developer.

00:21:49: Yeah, definitely.

00:21:50: But I think if we do a short rewind, so there was one time in your life where you have to cut off something and you decided for the mesh program and not for forms, right?

00:22:00: So, it might be a possibility to cancel the customer who's using forms, right? Or maybe to consider bringing Apex into this.

00:22:09: Yeah, well, they're considering it for some parts of the system, but on the other hand,

00:22:17: they have invested in moving to a Java-based application.

00:22:25: And they have been working on that for five years now and there's nothing there to show

00:22:30: yet.

00:22:31: So…

00:22:32: That quickly turned into a scary movie right now.

00:22:34: Yeah, exactly.

00:22:35: It was Scream and then it was Scary Movie, right?

00:22:39: But if you have dedicated your resources on that for five years, it's hard to say, well,

00:22:44: you know, just let's just pull the plug and do some Apex.

00:22:47: Silent Passive LSE.

00:22:49: Exactly.

00:22:50: I mean, this podcast is called Devs on Tape and we welcome everyone to this podcast and

00:22:56: we will not be opinionated about something, but I have to cut it off right now because

00:23:00: we were introducing Java right now.

00:23:02: And definitely we don't want to talk about this because it takes so long.

00:23:06: Pun intended.

00:23:07: I totally agree.

00:23:09: All right, so you are attending the K-Scope as a speaker and you might have the chance

00:23:16: to watch some APEX stuff and maybe you get into that more.

00:23:20: But let's talk about your sessions at K-Scope.

00:23:22: What are you talking about in this conference?

00:23:23: Oh, am I talking?

00:23:25: Oh, what am I talking about?

00:23:27: It's one week left, so you have to decide what you're talking about, right?

00:23:30: I have a total of three sessions.

00:23:34: One is about exception handling of error handling during bulk processing of data, so during

00:23:45: for all statements basically.

00:23:49: Another one is about the lessons learned during data migration projects.

00:23:57: And the third one, I have to think real hard.

00:23:59: I mean, it's your problem if you don't know.

00:24:03: Don't worry, by the time I step up to the stage, I will know.

00:24:10: Third one is…

00:24:12: We can get back to that if it's coming to your mind again.

00:24:16: Are all your talks about something you do in your projects or do you have one experience

00:24:22: from the project and something additional you do in your free time or something you

00:24:28: just think is important to talk about at a conference?

00:24:32: It's usually the kind of stuff that I do in my daily work.

00:24:38: And sometimes the data migration stuff, that's stuff I learned during the years because I've

00:24:50: done a lot of data migrations.

00:24:52: And I think, yeah, there's some stuff that keeps coming back.

00:24:57: Let's just make a talk about that.

00:25:00: But yeah, it's usually just stuff that I use every day and I like to do the beginner stuff,

00:25:09: so to speak.

00:25:11: Because when I'm doing my work, I notice the developers around me are amazed by some of

00:25:20: the possibilities and I think it's been here for 15 years.

00:25:24: How come you don't know about it?

00:25:26: I mean, that you don't use it is one thing, but you don't even know about it.

00:25:31: And then I think, yeah, I have to advocate this.

00:25:35: I have to make people aware of the fact that it's there.

00:25:38: So yeah, that's, then there's another topic for a talk.

00:25:43: - Yeah, great.

00:25:45: How many abstracts did you submit to the conference committee?

00:25:51: - For K-SCOPE?

00:25:52: - Yeah.

00:25:53: - Four.

00:25:54: - Four and three accepted.

00:25:55: good rate. Yeah. And now you have a surprise podcast right? Yeah yeah. So for

00:26:03: for all our listeners right so Eric Hum came for the beer right so he ubered

00:26:09: here with his fourth driver because everyone has abandoned his his request

00:26:14: when he went from the hotel here. Yeah I can imagine that they do that if they

00:26:18: see it's me, then yeah, who would want to pick me up, right?

00:26:22: All right.

00:26:23: I will not say anything about that, no comment, right?

00:26:27: But yeah, you went into our Airbnb and you were surprised that there are microphones

00:26:32: on the table and so we make sure that you're not prepared for this talk here.

00:26:37: But yeah, so…

00:26:38: Yeah, it was a huge surprise.

00:26:42: I did ask them if they knew the word consent, but apparently it's something new to them.

00:26:47: Definitely, yeah.

00:26:48: Because the mics are on and you signed this contract to us and we have beer on the table.

00:26:53: That's the reason because –

00:26:54: Yeah, that's always a good way to get me to do stuff.

00:26:58: Just give me beer.

00:26:59: That's for our listeners, right?

00:27:01: And there's also Smirnoff, so yeah.

00:27:04: There's a lot on the table right now.

00:27:08: Not only with the topics and the technical stuff, right?

00:27:11: Alright, so maybe we can dive into our categories today as we do all the time in our podcast.

00:27:17: And I have some questions to you about the hypothetically stuff, the in private stuff and the consumption stuff.

00:27:23: So let's start with the hypothetically thing.

00:27:25: So if you could undo one technology, that's a question I marked red because it's very, very hard to read.

00:27:34: Hypothetically, if you could undo one technological trend in the past, what would it be?

00:27:44: It can be everything, it could be electrical cars, it could be solar panels on the roof,

00:27:49: whatever.

00:27:50: It could be a software thing like forms for example.

00:27:54: And now you had enough time to think about that.

00:27:58: I was listening to you so I wasn't thinking.

00:28:00: Multitasking, another topic.

00:28:01: Yeah, bum bum bum.

00:28:02: And also the fact that you say it could be anything that makes it so broad.

00:28:09: You can say even more than one if you want.

00:28:15: What would I cancel?

00:28:18: More than IPA beer maybe?

00:28:19: It's not technological, but it's something.

00:28:26: Small small suitcases for carry on luggage on airplanes.

00:28:31: Oh yeah.

00:28:32: Was it the other way around when you were younger?

00:28:38: Well, when I was younger, you wouldn't have to pay extra for check-in luggage.

00:28:46: So everybody just had check-in luggage and took something on board to pass the time,

00:28:51: you know, have a drink, something to read and that's it.

00:28:55: Then you started to have to pay for check-in luggage.

00:29:00: And now everybody's trying to cram everything into these smaller suitcases and bring them

00:29:06: on board.

00:29:08: The problem I have with that, and the reason I think of this is because we had a small

00:29:13: discussion in a private Twitter group before this weekend.

00:29:21: Now everybody's taking these suitcases on board, and they have to be in the overhead

00:29:25: compartments because they are too big to fit under the chair in front of you.

00:29:31: And then at some point, these overhead compartments are full.

00:29:35: And then the stewardess, what do you call them in English?

00:29:40: The stewardess or whatever.

00:29:41: Yeah, stewardess.

00:29:42: Yeah, stewards and stewardesses and stewards.

00:29:46: And I think you have to be careful.

00:29:48: And they come up to you and they will take out your reasonably sized rucksack that you

00:29:54: took on board and tell you to put it under the chair in front of you.

00:30:00: Because they have the, they need the room for these huge suitcases.

00:30:06: And then here I am, the one with a sensible size, carry on luggage without any leg room

00:30:14: because I need to make space for these other people.

00:30:20: We had to reset the recording, we don't have the beeper.

00:30:25: Yeah, we don't have the beeper, but we have the explicit sign on the podcast.

00:30:29: So we can swear if you want.

00:30:33: So that's a bit of a frustration for me.

00:30:35: So yeah, I would cancel that.

00:30:38: I mean at some point they start to put the big luggage pieces into the normal storage

00:30:45: unit in the airplane.

00:30:47: So they say you can check it in for free, they say.

00:30:50: But yeah, I usually know what this problem is because I have big feet and big ass.

00:30:57: So yeah, all right, another question from the hypothetically part, so you have to think

00:31:02: again.

00:31:03: What would you like to invent and create in the future or in the technology sector or

00:31:10: something?

00:31:11: I really should have listened to this podcast before because then I would have been prepared.

00:31:17: Maybe I can use one of those pets here.

00:31:21: Yes, you should.

00:31:23: All right.

00:31:26: What would I invent?

00:31:30: Bigger overhead compartments and planes.

00:31:32: That's exactly what I was thinking of, yeah.

00:31:36: I know what we talked about, flying skateboard like Marty McFly had.

00:31:40: Yeah, that would be great, yeah.

00:31:42: So Moritz, one point for Moritz.

00:31:44: Now Eric, it's your turn.

00:31:45: Yeah, that's not what I would choose because, yeah, I'm too old for that.

00:31:50: Come on, Moritz is also old.

00:31:53: Oh, come on, no bashing here.

00:31:55: No program languages are no more.

00:32:00: You know I do the code reviews at our company.

00:32:03: All right, Eric, what is…

00:32:06: Big overhead compartments might be a good thing.

00:32:08: That would be a good one, but yeah, let's try to find something for myself, what I would,

00:32:13: what I thought of myself.

00:32:17: I really don't know.

00:32:18: I mean, I can think of things, but those are the corny standard stuff like a time machine

00:32:25: or whatever but yeah.

00:32:27: I'm sorry I really don't know.

00:32:30: I mean I'm pretty happy with the world as it is.

00:32:34: Well there are some things I'm not happy with but…

00:32:36: All right so maybe we just head over to the next question and if there's something you

00:32:43: could just – if something pops up then – yes.

00:32:46: Exactly.

00:32:47: Okay now we're going to in this category in private.

00:32:51: Are you satisfied with your work-life balance right now?

00:32:55: So as a self-employed, it's very, very self-employed.

00:32:58: It's very interesting to hear about that.

00:33:00: Yes, I am pretty happy about that.

00:33:05: What I'm not happy with is the fact that the day only has 24 hours because there are so

00:33:10: many things that I want to do work-related but also privately that I just don't have

00:33:18: the time for.

00:33:19: Yeah, I think the balance is quite okay, even though I do have to watch it, because as I

00:33:26: said before, I tend to say yes to everything that sounds interesting.

00:33:31: And that means that I spend quite a bit of time on work-related stuff.

00:33:38: And yeah, that's not always fair enough towards my wife.

00:33:45: Yeah, right. We had some answers to this question from different guests. They were saying that's

00:33:51: not work-life balance, it's work-life blending, right? So we all do stuff in our work or daily

00:33:57: business that is somehow our hobby, right? So it's not every time like work and private

00:34:04: life and so it's more like a blending. So, right? You do stuff you don't like very much

00:34:10: but there's stuff you're very interested in so it's like more than a hobby, right?

00:34:14: I've never heard that term, the blending, but yeah, blending but not work-life blending.

00:34:22: But yeah, I like it because indeed my work is not separated from my life.

00:34:29: It's not two parts of Eric Van Roon.

00:34:33: My work is very important for me.

00:34:35: I love it and I like doing it and it isn't something that I just drop when it's five

00:34:42: o'clock in the afternoon and then I start on my other life. For the first

00:34:47: moment I thought you were talking about your wife but you're working about your job, right?

00:34:53: My what? My what? Yeah, that's the thing you do for the two hours left. Okay, apparently I have a wife.

00:35:03: It's the dangers of a curious mind, right? Yeah. All right, next category,

00:35:08: Consumption. How do you consume news and new knowledge? For example, newsletter, Twitter,

00:35:15: books, magazines, LinkedIn or something. Or maybe even podcasts when it's not Def Sun Tape.

00:35:20: Now don't be offended by the fact that I haven't listened to this podcast before,

00:35:28: because podcasts are just not my thing. There are good podcasts out there, but I just don't

00:35:37: sit down and listen to a podcast for half an hour, an hour, and maybe in future when you have

00:35:44: not enough leg room and you need to concentrate on something, you can just put on your headphones and

00:35:48: hear a podcast, right? Yeah, I've tried things like that. There were podcasts that I would

00:35:56: really like to hear, and then whenever I had a long drive in the car, I think, you know what,

00:36:01: I'll listen to it then. But even then, it's just not something I like, listening to a podcast.

00:36:09: So, that's, it's just not for me. But yeah, obviously I do need to get some information

00:36:20: to me and that's yeah, websites, conferences, books. I'm an old guy as I said before so

00:36:31: I read books. Really? For the young people out there. That's a pile of printouts that you just

00:36:38: glue together on one side then you can flip them over. Okay. It's an old concept. Moritz, did you

00:36:45: hear about that? Yes it's it's analog just for you guys it's analog world. You

00:36:50: need light for this right? Well yeah natural light you know Sun natural light

00:36:56: that's so you can read at night. Oh by the way we have electricity so you can

00:37:01: have even artificial lights. I thought books are for raising your monitor to

00:37:07: your eye level. Yeah well that is how I see books used at certain workplaces yes

00:37:12: Yes and that's a great point to announce one great book from Stephen Feuerstein right?

00:37:18: It has a very great height for your monitor.

00:37:21: Oh no this is bleeding my soul.

00:37:24: Yeah for the listeners more it's a shocking.

00:37:27: The problem is that with every edition it gets thicker.

00:37:32: But it takes so long that you are raising.

00:37:36: I mean it's for the growing software developer you know?

00:37:40: both perspectives.

00:37:43: What a concept, great.

00:37:46: I do like books because I do like to have them in my hand and I like to go through them

00:37:52: and just skip from one chapter to another and back.

00:37:57: But also just to start reading at page one and end with the last page.

00:38:02: I mean even when this book is about forms or Java, it never gets outdated, right?

00:38:07: It's true.

00:38:08: Another step, another step.

00:38:10: I shouldn't do that, right?

00:38:13: All right, another question from the consumption part.

00:38:17: Do you turn off your cell phone at night or are you always reachable and always…

00:38:22: No, my phone when I go to bed is put into a mode where only the phone can disturb me,

00:38:31: the rest is silenced.

00:38:33: So yeah, the phone because I don't usually get called in the middle of the night by people

00:38:40: I don't know.

00:38:41: And the people I do know, if they call me in the middle of the night, then there is

00:38:45: an emergency.

00:38:46: So then they should be able to reach me.

00:38:48: All right.

00:38:49: So at night you're turning off like every notification besides the call function, if

00:38:58: it's called like that.

00:39:00: But how do you deal, and that's the next question.

00:39:02: How do you deal with the growing flood of information via various channels like push

00:39:06: notifications from news channels or more and more notifications?

00:39:10: How do you deal with that?

00:39:12: Badly.

00:39:13: It means you let everything go through and consume everything?

00:39:17: Yeah, a lot of it.

00:39:20: I spend a lot of time looking at my phone screen.

00:39:26: I would have to say too much time.

00:39:28: Yeah, I mean this leads to another question from the private part.

00:39:32: This will be the last question.

00:39:34: So would you show us your screen time of your, I think it's an Android phone, without blushing?

00:39:40: Well I don't blush easily.

00:39:43: I'm not ashamed of anything.

00:39:46: I don't know how to show you the screen time on my Android.

00:39:50: Is there an option for that on the phone?

00:39:53: You're asking the wrong guy because there's an iPad in front of me, I have a MacBook and

00:39:56: an iPhone, I don't even know.

00:39:57: I was improvising because this question is saying screen time on iPhone, but I saw that

00:40:06: you have an Android phone.

00:40:07: I mean, it's even harder to watch or to look at an Android phone for so long, right?

00:40:14: I don't know about a function in Android to show you the screen time.

00:40:19: It might be there, I don't know.

00:40:21: But just take it from me, it's a lot.

00:40:25: I mean we can see that in the conference right when you're walking around like a, it's called

00:40:30: Smombie I think, smartphone zombie.

00:40:33: We'll see that in the next week at Kscope.

00:40:35: So.

00:40:36: Well you will see me looking at my phone a lot but that's not just stuff coming in.

00:40:45: Even during presentations you will see me looking at my phone.

00:40:49: It's not because I'm not interested in what the person is talking about.

00:40:54: I'm also using it to make notes.

00:40:57: - Okay, so maybe not talk to you at a conference,

00:41:00: just send a Twitter DM, right?

00:41:02: - That would be the best thing, yeah.

00:41:04: - Great, so with this advice,

00:41:06: you're now excused to leave, just on the podcast.

00:41:11: And thank you very much for attending.

00:41:13: And I think it was a great episode

00:41:15: and thank you to Maurits and Philipp.

00:41:17: And I hope you have a great conference week next week

00:41:20: and we will share some knowledge.

00:41:22: Thank you.

00:41:24: Goodbye. - Thank you.

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